Which coil packs are the best?

[TermiN8er]

To say 'the stock ones suck as well' is actually an unfair misrepresentation. There are so many aftermarket COPS that don't even perform as well as the oem ones.

Explain, "perform as well" maybe reliability is better on ford because they have a lower voltage spark and are under less stress but since they recently outsourced to china I am not sure of the quality.
I am interested in the comparison at high boost between the oem and others(MSD in my case) .

I raised this question when my tuner tried to tell me that my valve springs tension wasn't set properly an that is why my car breaks up at 6300 rpm. He wouldn't even remotely consider a COP issue. Even when my friend with different builder and cams (same COPS) did the same thing... He insisted our engines were at fault, "can't be the COPs their OEM" no real evidence.

I will definitely do my best to scientifically compare the two.

 

[01cobravortech]

Explain, "perform as well" maybe reliability is better on ford because they have a lower voltage spark and are under less stress but since they recently outsourced to china I am not sure of the quality.
I am interested in the comparison at high boost between the oem and others(MSD in my case) .

I raised this question when my tuner tried to tell me that my valve springs tension wasn't set properly an that is why my car breaks up at 6300 rpm. He wouldn't even remotely consider a COP issue. Even when my friend with different builder and cams (same COPS) did the same thing... He insisted our engines were at fault, "can't be the COPs their OEM" no real evidence.

I will definitely do my best to scientifically compare the two.

The only aftermarket COPS I've tried were the WeaponX ones. They were all the rage several years ago...

And their claims were that the spark was so much greater than that of the OEM that you would see a change in AFR because that's how efficient they were. They simply broke up at higher rpms, in my experience. And many had the same experience as me. In fact, IIRC the owner of WeaponX got banned from ModularFords because of their product not meeting the claims.

As far as what happened with your tuner...well maybe your tuner isn't that good.

But many have run some very high hp applications and have made the FORD COPS work without issue.

I've wanted to believe the hype about aftermarket COPS, but as far as I'm concerned the WeaponX is not different than the Granatelli or Accel or MSD...(or insert whatever brand you want here)...

The stock COPS are stout. And not too expensive to replace either.

 

[itSSlow98]

To say 'the stock ones suck as well' is actually an unfair misrepresentation. There are so many aftermarket COPS that don't even perform as well as the oem ones.

So because the aftermarket isnt as good as oem then the oem are automatically top of the line and cant be made any better? Ill stand by my stance and say the oem coils suck. LSX coils are about as good as you can get.

 

[01cobravortech]

So because the aftermarket isnt as good as oem then the oem are automatically top of the line and cant be made any better? Ill stand by my stance and say the oem coils suck. LSX coils are about as good as you can get.

What I'm saying is that you are slamming the OEM ones and by doing so, trying to suggest to people that going with aftermarket COPS is the way to go. And its not right for you to do that. Many have done this already. They have learned the lesson the hard way, as have I. Maybe you just bought a Terminator. I don't know. I don't want people learning the hard way that these aftermarket COPS are NOT an upgrade. I don't want people flushing their money down the toilet, because you are several years behind what we learned already. :read:

 

[TermiN8er]

The only aftermarket COPS I've tried were the WeaponX ones. They were all the rage several years ago...

And their claims were that the spark was so much greater than that of the OEM that you would see a change in AFR because that's how efficient they were. They simply broke up at higher rpms, in my experience. And many had the same experience as me. In fact, IIRC the owner of WeaponX got banned from ModularFords because of their product not meeting the claims.

As far as what happened with your tuner...well maybe your tuner isn't that good.

But many have run some very high hp applications and have made the FORD COPS work without issue.

I've wanted to believe the hype about aftermarket COPS, but as far as I'm concerned the WeaponX is not different than the Granatelli or Accel or MSD...(or insert whatever brand you want here)...

The stock COPS are stout. And not too expensive to replace either.

They are not that expensive because little kids in china make them for cheap! Name brands don't change electrical properties. Current is current and voltage is voltage. I am saying that OEM will be good and work fine until a point and then you need to consider that point. Motor was stock and made 775hp on msd's and had no issues for a long time. I pulled them when I rebuilt my motor and upped the compression. I went with ford and.... Now I have issues. My tuner is great, he just represents the mass of lemmings that are running over the cliff because Ford says so. I am more of an open minded "because It makes logical sense" kinda person. Don't get stuck on a name... Expand your knowledge and explore other options. Every situation is different.

Either way.... Good conversation and to each their own. 'Merica!!

 

[RPM4DAZ]

I have to say that I am in the same belief as TermiN8r. I have had a misfire issue with my Sport Trac 3V engine ever since I changes the cams for more mid range torque. It would misfire when working it fairly hard. I changed to the FRPP plugs. It helped for a while, but has started to resurface and the idle is erratic at best. I called multiple manufactures tech lines. I got the same story ( if they could even answer my questions ) and nobody even second guesses the stupid high resistant coiled link to the plugs. I called Mark @ Weapon X and he could at least explain why all aftermarket coils only increase voltage and not much in energy ( current/amperage ). The ECU charges the coils with the amperage needed to fire the plug. The problem is in the basic design. Everyone I spoke to, except Weapon X, just winds their coils a bit different to lower resistance and step up voltage. No increase in amperage what so ever. The GMS "link" is at least a better design than stock for sure. The Weapon X connects the output of the coil to the spark plug. One source of resistance and the biggest weakness for sure is gone. The coil is also designed to increase the transfer of maximum amperage/current for a longer amount of time. We will see if it helps my measly little N/A truck. Now, since coil output is directly related to its input. Who has tried the Boost-A Spark from Kenne Bell? Also, Mallory ignition makes the Firestorm Ignition control. They even make one specifically for the Ford COP ignition strategy. It would be over kill for my truck, but puts out 500+ millijules of energy!!! That should really help those with high cylinder pressures. And, since the Mallory ignition controls the coils through its own drivers, it should be able to control the LSX style coils with ease and not hurt our ECUs. Food for thought??

 

[TermiN8er]

I have to say that I am in the same belief as TermiN8r. I have had a misfire issue with my Sport Trac 3V engine ever since I changes the cams for more mid range torque. It would misfire when working it fairly hard. I changed to the FRPP plugs. It helped for a while, but has started to resurface and the idle is erratic at best. I called multiple manufactures tech lines. I got the same story ( if they could even answer my questions ) and nobody even second guesses the stupid high resistant coiled link to the plugs. I called Mark @ Weapon X and he could at least explain why all aftermarket coils only increase voltage and not much in energy ( current/amperage ). The ECU charges the coils with the amperage needed to fire the plug. The problem is in the basic design. Everyone I spoke to, except Weapon X, just winds their coils a bit different to lower resistance and step up voltage. No increase in amperage what so ever. The GMS "link" is at least a better design than stock for sure. The Weapon X connects the output of the coil to the spark plug. One source of resistance and the biggest weakness for sure is gone. The coil is also designed to increase the transfer of maximum amperage/current for a longer amount of time. We will see if it helps my measly little N/A truck. Now, since coil output is directly related to its input. Who has tried the Boost-A Spark from Kenne Bell? Also, Mallory ignition makes the Firestorm Ignition control. They even make one specifically for the Ford COP ignition strategy. It would be over kill for my truck, but puts out 500+ millijules of energy!!! That should really help those with high cylinder pressures. And, since the Mallory ignition controls the coils through its own drivers, it should be able to control the LSX style coils with ease and not hurt our ECUs. Food for thought??

Goo info! I'm gonna check out the KB Boost spark and Mallory ign. Thanks!

 

[01cobravortech]

Ford Racing 4.6L 4V Mustang Ignition Coil Set (99-04 Cobra; 03-04 Mach 1; 07-12 GT500) M-12029-4V - Free Shipping!

Interestingly enough...according to Tousley Ford parts...these are also the same COPS used on the '13 GT500. If its good enough for a '13 its good enough for any high hp Terminator application.

 

[TermiN8er]

Interestingly enough...according to Tousley Ford parts...these are also the same COPS used on the '13 GT500. If its good enough for a '13 its good enough for any high hp Terminator application.

If your ok with "made in china" GT500 parts.....

And my terminator has over 800hp.... Just say'n

 

[01cobravortech]

If your ok with "made in china" GT500 parts.....

And my terminator has over 800hp.... Just say'n

Practically everything in my home is made in China or Mexico or South Korea....

So yea I'm not really concerned about my COPS manufacturing point, rather their functional nature.

 

[TermiN8er]

Practically everything in my home is made in China or Mexico or South Korea....

So yea I'm not really concerned about my COPS manufacturing point, rather their functional nature.

The point is that they have changed their product an people blindly still just follow and say OEM is the only way to go!?!! Why? "My tuner says its better" ...

Just some info for you to "think" about. It's not who says its better its why they say it. Again, for my higher Hp application I think something needs to change. For most others I agree that the OEM COPs will work fine. Just don't like to see ppl just drinking cool aid and. Not questioning.

 

[01cobravortech]

The point is that they have changed their product an people blindly still just follow and say OEM is the only way to go!?!! Why? "My tuner says its better" ...

Just some info for you to "think" about. It's not who says its better its why they say it. Again, for my higher Hp application I think something needs to change. For most others I agree that the OEM COPs will work fine. Just don't like to see ppl just drinking cool aid and. Not questioning.

:lol:

I really don't think you get it...

Most 03-04 Cobras are not at your power level...

And plenty of folks, myself included, have not had any issues in the 500 - 600hp range.

Your 800hp application is on the extreme side and well beyond what Ford was aiming form with the COPS that were designed for a '390hp' mustang.

No one is drinking any koolaid here. You're taking your extreme setup (800hp) and arguing from the wrong foundation on this whole matter.

 

[Fuzzy Logic]

I had a coil issue with my OEM coils (misfire). I went with GMS as replacements, sold my mach, and they are still on there without issues.

 

[TermiN8er]

:lol:

I really don't think you get it...

Most 03-04 Cobras are not at your power level...

And plenty of folks, myself included, have not had any issues in the 500 - 600hp range.

Your 800hp application is on the extreme side and well beyond what Ford was aiming form with the COPS that were designed for a '390hp' mustang.

No one is drinking any koolaid here. You're taking your extreme setup (800hp) and arguing from the wrong foundation on this whole matter.

You obviously didn't read my post. I said for stock applications it works fine.

I am against blanket statements that the OEM COPs are some kind of "Magic" . They have their problems in high Hp applications and the manufacturing process has changed. So your assumptions may no longer be valid about the gt500 "new" cops.

Every comparison test I have seen between OEM and aftermarket has yielded more power across almost all applications. I understand there is motivation on the part of the manufacturer(MSd..etc). I plan on doing a comparison and my only motivation will be make more HP and not have the car break up.

Most ppl don't want to spend $3-500 to get 10hp and a smoother idle on mostly stock cars. Again, I want to run the upper limit and it may give me a stable spark above 6300 rpm ( unlike now).

 

[cobracide]

This is one of the most lop sided polls ever.

op:

 

[Sagittaria]

boost a spark>>>aftermarket coils. COPs... coil packs.. ignition coils are nothing but step-up transformers with a current limiting resistor to transform the 13-14v of a car to the ~30,000v needed to overcome the resistance of air and fuel mixture. Of course more voltage means you can overcome the resistance of harsher environments (boost/high HP anyone?) and obviously shoddier COPs may not step up the voltage quite as high as others. But still, they are nothing but coils of wire. You can only fit so many windings in the stock form factor.. thus aftermarket products can only be marginally better...

The heck with that crap. All a boost a spark does is add more voltage to the original lead going to the ignition coil. Couple that with a typical transformer ratio of ~1:2307... let's do some maths.

Stock coil by itself @13v... 13 x 2307= 29,991v
Stock coil w/BAS @ ONLY 16v = 15x2307= 36,912v

So you've increased yourself almost 7000v. That'd take a transformer ratio of 1:2839 by a coil itself to do (36912/13=2839). Or an extra 532 windings to be stuffed into the same size package. You can't use smaller smaller gauge wire without limiting current (and power). Maybe you can fit some more windings in the same size package... but to any major extent? Doubtful.

And keep in mind a boost a spark is able to go all the way up to 20v!!!! And all it is basically a step up transformer on its own... you're just not stuffing it into the same package.

Coils have always been a gimmick to me like many other auto products... some simple knowledge of electricity and some maths will prove it.

 

[TermiN8er]

boost a spark>>>aftermarket coils. COPs... coil packs.. ignition coils are nothing but step-up transformers with a current limiting resistor to transform the 13-14v of a car to the ~30,000v needed to overcome the resistance of air and fuel mixture. Of course more voltage means you can overcome the resistance of harsher environments (boost/high HP anyone?) and obviously shoddier COPs may not step up the voltage quite as high as others. But still, they are nothing but coils of wire. You can only fit so many windings in the stock form factor.. thus aftermarket products can only be marginally better...

The heck with that crap. All a boost a spark does is add more voltage to the original lead going to the ignition coil. Couple that with a typical transformer ratio of ~1:2307... let's do some maths.

Stock coil by itself @13v... 13 x 2307= 29,991v
Stock coil w/BAS @ ONLY 16v = 15x2307= 36,912v

So you've increased yourself almost 7000v. That'd take a transformer ratio of 1:2839 by a coil itself to do (36912/13=2839). Or an extra 532 windings to be stuffed into the same size package. You can't use smaller smaller gauge wire without limiting current (and power). Maybe you can fit some more windings in the same size package... but to any major extent? Doubtful.

And keep in mind a boost a spark is able to go all the way up to 20v!!!! And all it is basically a step up transformer on its own... you're just not stuffing it into the same package.

Coils have always been a gimmick to me like many other auto products... some simple knowledge of electricity and some maths will prove it.

Excellent post!

1. Do you know the exact primary to secondary winding ratio? ( Or was that an assumption based on input and output voltages?) Because your example implies a lot of windings in each and that means an increase in 532 would not be that tough. It would result in an increase in secondary voltage without changing primary (I or V) and can be done without a boost a spark and makes aftermarket coil claims possible ( while probably thinner wire and less reliable).

But good info that I implied but didn't have exact numbers on.

 

[BTS]

The point is that they have changed their product an people blindly still just follow and say OEM is the only way to go!?!! Why? "My tuner says its better" ...

Just some info for you to "think" about. It's not who says its better its why they say it. Again, for my higher Hp application I think something needs to change. For most others I agree that the OEM COPs will work fine. Just don't like to see ppl just drinking cool aid and. Not questioning.

I agree OEM isn't like it use to be , I rather go aftermarket and get a good warranty

 

[specizripn]

I was about to mention Boost A Spark as well. From what i've heard BAS with OEM coils is the way to go if you are running out of juice.

 

[Mach828]

Summit even has a set of 4v cops now.

I replaced mine with frpp