SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In With His Opinion of The 2013 GT500 @ The Nürburgring

[Kapy]

"Official" Nürburgring Times SVT’s Jamal Hameedi Weighs-In

An official 'Ring lap time for the 2013 Shelby GT500? SVT's Chief Nameplate Engineer expounds why none exists.

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We certainly seem to have stirred up a bit controversy with our recent article chronicling Nürburgring lap times for a few very potent Pony/Muscle Cars. In one corner we have the 2013 SVT Shelby GT500 Mustang, home of the most powerful production V8 on planet Earth; and in the other we find the Chevy Camaro (in both ZL1 and Z/28 flavors). A couple weeks earlier we posted an exclusive video of the GT500 running a very impressive estimated lap time of just a shade under 7:40, which brings us to the point of contention.

During our dissection of the Ford footage; we had 100% raw, unedited, footage we used Chevy’s widely publicized Camaro videos as a frame of reference for lap starting and ending points. That’s where things really started to get intriguing. To the naked eye it appears that GM may have been shaving their lap times a bit by fiddling with their timers. Though definitely not conclusive the screenshots in this thread are rather damning:


http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...-shelby-gt500-mustang-takes-nuerburgring.html


That brings us to an email exchange I had with Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer Jamal Hameedi. I really just had one simple question, why doesn’t Ford release Nürburgring lap times for the GT500. Jamal’s answer was highly insightful, to say the least. Check out the full exchange below:





Here's is the reply from Ford's Global Performance Vehicle Chief Engineer:





So after reading the opinion SVT’s main-man himself, what do you think? Are manufacturer produced Nürburgring lap times actually substantive, or are they just marketing fluff?


-SID297:beer:

I have to agree 110% with Jamal! Marketing fluff is all it is. Impressive yes, but he is absolutely right. Put them on the same track next to each other with driver's of comparable skills.

 

[Suck_it_MysticZ]

He sounds like a little kid who says "My big wheel is faster and I think the other kids are telling a lie about how fast they can go around corners so I am going to call them poopy heads and just say they cant go that fast."

Pff......give me a break. Run the car, see what it does, post the times. If it sucks it sucks. If it doesnt it doesnt. Who cares? You guys who want to buy the car will still want to, those who dont.....wont. How hard is that to comprehend?

People on here seem to think that the Ring is a big long open track. It is not. It is a SHIT ton of turns and some long runs. That being said you have to be able to put the power down coming out of the corners and be able to hold a line in the big sweepers. Sorry, IRS > SRA and it shows. Back to the track though, the track has a lot of turns, just because its long doesnt mean its a huge oval track.

The answer given is "We wont post a time because we dont believe the other guys ran what they did and since they had different weather conditions its not the same." And that last part is correct. That being said you can run in very similar conditions. Cop out answer...plain and simple.

The fact remains GT500 is the king at the strip....but it should be! Hell, it has 80+ more horse power, solid axle, and is not as heavy. Yup, it doesnt take a genius to figure out who will win. But who cares who is fast in stock form? I know plenty of little fox bodies with small blocks that look like a granny car that will peel the paint on a GT500 in stock form. So that car is faster at the track. You want to trade in your GT500 for a 1989 LX 5.0?

 

[Cobra Jet 429]

So I take it Ford never lies or cheats? I recall a big horsepower lie when I bought my '99 Cobra. Ford denied it then they got busted.
I love both cars and would choose the GT500 over the ZL1 in a second. I don't believe the GT500 can hang with the ZL1 on a road course period.

That was a supplier issue. Intake molding was wrong.
Ford fixed those for free too.
Sounds honest to me.

And honestly, aside from a vague benchmark, Ring times are just fun facts for bench racers. Most guys who really road race understand just what Jamal means about variables. Without a sanctioning body, rules, and inspections.

 

[mustangletback]

i will say FORD knew the GT500 could beat the CRAPMARO zl1.once again they let Government Motors look like the fool that they are.

 

[RX1Cobra]

All the people saying they didn't post the time because it sucked show me a published 1/4 time from ford. Or does it suck at that too? They choose not to market that and let the car talk for itself. Unlike al o with his simulations and mom jeans.

 

[Mike L.]

i will say FORD knew the GT500 could beat the CRAPMARO zl1.once again they let Government Motors look like the fool that they are.

The GT500 would fry the brakes 3/4 down the track with a great driver and slow down so much it would be ridiculous. Too much power with too little brakes and a chassis built for 500hp max.
Ford knows the GT500 is a one trick pony. It will not sustain long hard curvy rides very long. The Camaro will. I would still buy the GT500 cause I don't give a shit about the rest. Love the car.

 

[Tex Arcana]

Ever heard of Shelby run Europe? 20 American Shelby and Ford GT owners did just that, and 2015 and 2016 we are doing it all over again with many more cars this time.

At any rate- back to the topic at hand, Jamaal is right. ford doesn't need the numbers to sell their car. On the other hand, how expensive would it be to allow a third party take possession of a showroom car at a dealer from Ford, Chevy and send them over? Since we have done that, I can tell you it is less than 10k to ship 2 cars there and back, and add in the cost of the cars, the bill for Ford and Chevy would be less than 100k each...that's not that much money. But both companies have more to lose than gain. That's the real answer why its not done.

Want more proof? Top Gear had a 2013 GT500 that Jeremy Clarkson drove across Europe and bitched about the whole way. You all remember its lap time when the stig drove it on their track, right? Yeah, they didnt.

I've seen every single episode they have ever done, and that was the first time a showcased vehicle was not given a lap time for the board. Am I the only to notice that? I bet not.:read:

Second time: the did the same with an '03/'04 Lightning. :nonono:

 

[O'Neill]

Well im just glad he didnt try to explain it by using some kind of simulation.

 

[Tex Arcana]

You weren't driving hard enough. Period.

You would know, since you were there in the passenger seat.

Oh, snap: you weren't there. :dw: so methinks you haven't a clue how hard I was driving it.

The fact is, I was going faster than the GTs and Cobras on that track at that time; the only one I wasn't beating was a Cobra R-clone sporting a Paxton blower and about 600hp to the wheels and a full-road-race suspension setup. And my brakes were fried pretty nicely by that run--which is why I went to a 13" BBK setup.

But my fluid never boiled ONCE. Chalk that up to that inferior Ford engineering, I suppose. Or chalk your boiled fluid up to that superior GM engineering. Whichever stains your underoos the best.

 

[Tex Arcana]

Oh really? I'm talking Motul and SRF, not the crappiest Dot 4 on the market.

Motul is DOT4, and has higher wet boiling points than just about anything else.

 

[Tex Arcana]

Why? Oh right I forgot you vette' owners are a lot older than most of us. lol

Nah, he just ran over to the Gumball forums and posted threads: "OMFG SVT HEAD DUDE USED 'LOL' NO WONDER THEY ALL SUXORZ!!!"

 

[Tex Arcana]

That was a supplier issue. Intake molding was wrong.
Ford fixed those for free too.
Sounds honest to me.

And honestly, aside from a vague benchmark, Ring times are just fun facts for bench racers. Most guys who really road race understand just what Jamal means about variables. Without a sanctioning body, rules, and inspections.

But that led to Ford understating their HP numbers so that issue could never happen again. Now Ford's just a bunch of liars because they can't give honest HP numbers and won't post their 'ring times, so let's run over to the GM forums and bash them until they post info that shows otherwise, and we'll just delete the threads and user accounts so they can't show us up.

Oh, wait...

 

[Tex Arcana]

All the people saying they didn't post the time because it sucked show me a published 1/4 time from ford. Or does it suck at that too? They choose not to market that and let the car talk for itself. Unlike al o with his simulations and mom jeans.

:wtf: they don't publish these things because they do specifically state that competing the vehicle will void the warranty.

And before you jump on that, show us what GM publishes on their car, INCLUDING the warranty info. My money sez it'll be close to the same.

 

[devildog1679]

BS if you ask me. I guarantee that if it's time bested the Camaro they would have posted it.

 

[Jimmysidecarr]

I agree with Jamal.

Only I'm not going to sugar coat it.

1. Ring times are complete irrelevant to me. And I suspect to any American who regularly tracks his car(s) here in the states. Times at US tracks are all that matter in the real world. We don't run at the ring, it's fun to read about but that is about it. It might as well be on the moon.

2. Only rookies and magazine guys track with stock pads. Stock pads are for cold brake testing, quietness and keeping the lawyers happy. I would expect them to fade.
I consider anyone who evaluates a car's track cred by it's performance with stock pads to be naive poser who is probably still in green group(or has never been on any track at all) and is driving a car with stock pads. :bored:

3. Verification. There is none.

Next topic?

 

[BlackBolt9]

I'm sure this thread is chuck full of really intelligent posts :rollseyes but I'm just gonna skip over all of that and get right to my points of disagreement.

Ring times! Oh man don't even get me started on this topic. Our (my) view is that there is no such thing as an official manufacturer Ring time. The times being posted by many manufacturers are in my humble opinion akin to qualifying times being set at a race with no pre/post inspection (ie it would never happen).

Ok, that's nice. So then why did you make it public that your car would do 200+mph on the Nardo Ring in Italy?

In the racing world - inspection/verification is a key part of the sport. In order for us to set an "official" time corner weights would have to be taken, calibration checksums need to be verified, engine power verified via chassis rolls, a hoist inspection, and probably a fuel sample taken by an independent 3rd party like a governing/sanctioning body.

Huh? In the racing world there is a rule book to check against. What are you checking against in the OEM? That they have the same parts as the OEM? That you have the same alignment specs as allowed by the OEM? Corner-weights of the OEM? Please, I'd like to see what the OEM corner weight specification is. Sanctioning bodies (Grand Am, NASA, SCCA) don't even specify corner-weights, just a minimum weight. This is just getting in the realm of silly for being a reason not to release a 'Ring time for the GT500.

I would love to see this since everyone seems to be infatuated with Ring times. Having said that, I think it's really important that performance cars be judged against one another on the track - but the comparisons really need to be on the same day by a professional driver (just track condition from day to day puts another huge variable in comparisons). We have seen lap time spreads of over 3 sec with same car same driver different day at VIR. Now extrapolate that to a track with a 7 min lap time. Motor Trend collects cars on the same day and puts a professional driver behind the wheel - not journalists whose driving ability puts yet another huge variable in lap times - and compares vehicles same driver same day. I think they do it correctly. So does Auto Motor und Sport in Germany.

Cool, I can agree with that.

The reason we test at the Ring is because it is a fantastic venue for doing vehicle dynamics work. You get so much different content in terms of turns, elevation, etc that you would need to visit 5 different tracks to duplicate it. It's also a chance for our North American vehicle dynamics guys to cross pollinate with our Team RS guys since we are all one group now. Team RS gets a chance to offer feedback on the RWD cars and the SVT guys offer perspective on the FWD cars. That's really powerful and worth spending the money to send cars and engineers over there. Renting the Ring exclusively ($$$$$!) to make a video - not so much. I'd rather put that money into the car.

So you use the 'Ring for testing. Does that mean the car in the video isn't showroom stock, since you were testing something with it? Did you not release a 'Ring time because the car you set the time with was modified in some way, which means it's irrelevant to compare it to other 'Ring times?

I know this isn't what the internet bench racers want to hear. As soon as there is a standard for measuring lap times - our performance vehicles will be the first in line to get tested. Until then - it's just marketing and a total free for all. They are very cool to watch though. Lol. The 2013/2014 GT500 sold just fine without a published Ring time (who could have imagined!). Actually we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make more GT500s due to high demand. I've seen other performance cars with published Ring times being offered with incentives and cash on the hood (again - who could have imagined!). So I sleep pretty well at night. And spend my days (and nights) working on the next slayer vs. worrying about Ring times.

Hopefully this gives you some perspective on where our minds are at wrt Ring times.
See you at SEMA!

Jamal

Can't really argue with this since I've owned a '07 GT500 and wish I wouldn't have had to sell it. The '13 is obviously an improvement over that, so of course I'd want one of them as well. :thumbsup:

 

[fastfaster]

Living in the real world ... means competing in the real world. Come on Ford, you look really scared. Tell tale sign you can't compete with the big boys. Pathetic answer!

 

[reason4treason]

:sleeping:

 

[QUIKAG]

You would know, since you were there in the passenger seat.

Oh, snap: you weren't there. :dw: so methinks you haven't a clue how hard I was driving it.

The fact is, I was going faster than the GTs and Cobras on that track at that time; the only one I wasn't beating was a Cobra R-clone sporting a Paxton blower and about 600hp to the wheels and a full-road-race suspension setup. And my brakes were fried pretty nicely by that run--which is why I went to a 13" BBK setup.

But my fluid never boiled ONCE. Chalk that up to that inferior Ford engineering, I suppose. Or chalk your boiled fluid up to that superior GM engineering. Whichever stains your underoos the best.

Okay, I've been to MSR over a hundred times and unless you had a lot of traffic with no way to sustain higher average speeds, your stock fluid would have boiled. Sounds like you were at a Ford dealership sponsored event with a bunch of newbie hacks so invariably you had plenty of time to cool your brakes between your bonsai big bend into ricochet triple digit runs. LOL (in honor of Jamal).

I'm done talking about a fricking Ford truck at MSR and how it's a superior track weapon to a 2012 CTS-V. LOL.

 

[iamtheshaner]

Did someone say Jeremy Clarkson, Mr. Jaguar, had few positive remarks about an American car?? Shocker. Well, it must be garbage then - the authority has spoken. The Camaro is most certainly faster around the ring. It would get my bet in Vegas with little hesitation. That being said I would still rather have the GT500 because strangely enough I will drive it on public American roads, not road courses here and certainly not road courses in Germany. Maybe if we cry hard enough on the internet Ford will spend money to have engineers market an antiquated model they cannot produce enough of for the purpose of Mickey Mouse comparison riddled with variables and lacking a constant.