Unmarked car instigating race?

[CLOCKWO12K]

it is different, if a cop is posing as a prostitute/dealer to catch criminals, usually the criminals are the ones instigating the crime, the cop posing doesnt approach people and encourage them to take part in the crime, they are just reacting to someone else instigating the crime.

in a car, if the officer is just cruising and they are approached by another car, then rev'd on followed by the car accelerating to the point that they are speeding, that is one thing. however if the officer is rev'ing next to the civilian and accelerating in bursts to encourage the civilian to speed, it is considered entrapment, as the officer was encouraging the person to commit a crime, they otherwise wouldn't have commited had the officer not egged them on.

i know because i have been there done that. please do not patronize me.
it will not stand up in court.

now a sting on a drag racing ring or something like that is a totally different matter.

 

[CLOCKWO12K]

just an fyi from someone who knows to the people that don't.
now i invite you to flame me:burn: and make yourselves look like the complete geniuses im sure you are...[/end sarcasm]:bash:

 

[SaleenFiend]

it is different, if a cop is posing as a prostitute/dealer to catch criminals, usually the criminals are the ones instigating the crime, the cop posing doesnt approach people and encourage them to take part in the crime, they are just reacting to someone else instigating the crime.

Although If I go outside and pose as a prostitute and engage in the same activity as the officer I would be arrested?

We could argue all day and go in circles. All situations are viewed differently from any other perspective. I can understand your point of view as well as mine. So lets just save ourselves the time and agree to disagree

 

[Riddla]

Quick question- Are cops allowed to put the metal to the floor to instigate a race?

 

[85FourEyedGT]

funny part is i know most of you on this site are itching to let the your svt's bring down the hammer of god on any ricer/chevy that pokes at your ribs, and if this happened to you , you would be pissed.....

do i think its wrong? yea, kinda

does the law think its wrong? no

and the law is all that matters

 

[FordSVTFan]

I think there is a difference.

A cop gunning it and "toying" with another car to get him to punch it should be illegal.

If the person is not predisposed to race, he wont. If he is predisposed to race, he will suffer the consequences. It is not distinguishable from a civilian doing the same thing causing another car to race and a police officer observing from an unmarked car.

Now if a cop is cruising around in a nice mustang or unmarked car and another car comes up and wants to race him, then that is fine, but I don't like how you can "taunt" someone into doing something illegal, its like "lets see how far we can push him".

There is no pushing. Revving an engine is not taunting. The other driver has no reason to engage in illegal activity at that point, unless it is their will to do so.

Everyone would want someone dead if you push them far enough, everyone would buy drugs if you give them a good enough reason to and push them enough, everyone would say the word yes if you push them enough. its the "everyone has a price" concept

If a person is not predisposed to killing another, they usually wont. If a person is not predisposed to buying drugs, they usually wont.

Everyone has a price? So, if you are offered enough money you would kill someone you dont know and have no reason to think is anything other than a good person?

 

[FordSVTFan]

it is different, if a cop is posing as a prostitute/dealer to catch criminals, usually the criminals are the ones instigating the crime, the cop posing doesnt approach people and encourage them to take part in the crime, they are just reacting to someone else instigating the crime.

You watch too much tv.

in a car, if the officer is just cruising and they are approached by another car, then rev'd on followed by the car accelerating to the point that they are speeding, that is one thing. however if the officer is rev'ing next to the civilian and accelerating in bursts to encourage the civilian to speed, it is considered entrapment, as the officer was encouraging the person to commit a crime, they otherwise wouldn't have commited had the officer not egged them on.

That is not entrapment. Where in the world do you get this crap? They were predisposed to commit the act, they were simply given the opportunity. If it werent the officer, it would have been another car. "Egging them on" is allowed. What isnt allowed is for the officer or his agent to promise them someone and induce them to commit an act they had no predisposition to commit.

i know because i have been there done that. please do not patronize me. It will not stand up in court.

You are not correct. It is that simple. Your experience is your experience. There are many reasons why a case is kicked or a judge doesn't agree with the state. Entrapment is a specific legal term, that has a specific meaning and what is being described here is NOT entrapment, no matter how many times you say it is.

I have been through this more than once.

now a sting on a drag racing ring or something like that is a totally different matter.

No, it isnt. The law is the same regardless of whether it is a single incident or an ongoing operation.

 

[05 Roush]

As always, the answer to this question is "it depends". Entrapment rules are the same, regardless of the severity of the crime or infraction.

From an excerpt from the US Department of Justice:

Of all the negative features of sting operations, entrapment is by far the most widely cited. This
is because many of the ethical issues described above come together to form the “entrapment
defense,” used by offenders to argue that the police tricked them into committing the crime.
There are many legal tests for entrapment, and every U.S. state’s law recognizes the defense.
While we need not go into the legal technicalities, there are two legal tests of entrapment: the
“subjective” and “objective” tests, both of which take as their starting point that the government
encouraged or induced the offense in question. The subjective test asks whether the offender
had a predisposition to commit the act, that is, it focuses on the offender’s psychological state.
The objective test asks whether the government’s encouragement exceeded reasonable levels,
thus it focuses on the government’s actions in constructing enticements—whether it went “too
far.”32 How each of these is assessed, of course, is the subject of legal wrangling, and may in
the long run depend on a jury.

http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/e10079110.txt

 

[FordSVTFan]

Although If I go outside and pose as a prostitute and engage in the same activity as the officer I would be arrested?

We could argue all day and go in circles. All situations are viewed differently from any other perspective. I can understand your point of view as well as mine. So lets just save ourselves the time and agree to disagree

You have no legal cause to engage in law enforcement activity. If you meet the definition of the statute of the crime you are charged, you are likely to be convicted.

It would be a great world if all crimes and all criminal would drop into the lap of law enforcement, but it just doesnt happen. I would rather the police set up an operation and give drug dealers and pedophiles the opportunity to deal with them, then with some children.

 

[Worsedog]

I'm sorry but I must have missed your point? If I am effected by crime then justice should be served NO matter the circumstances.

The point was the investigative/crimefighting techniques used to solve a crime that directly affected you could very well be the ones you so strenuously object to. If in the course of their investigation the police had to pose as some less than legal personality would you be happy that the investigation was hampered by your "rules" for fighting crime?

 

[01cobravortech]

Entrapment? :lol: C'mon man.

Now if the cop pulls along side him and points a pistol at the driver and says hit the gas hard, thats entrapment. But thats not going to happen.

 

[Finaltheorem47]

If the person is not predisposed to race, he wont. If he is predisposed to race, he will suffer the consequences. It is not distinguishable from a civilian doing the same thing causing another car to race and a police officer observing from an unmarked car.



There is no pushing. Revving an engine is not taunting. The other driver has no reason to engage in illegal activity at that point, unless it is their will to do so.



If a person is not predisposed to killing another, they usually wont. If a person is not predisposed to buying drugs, they usually wont.

Everyone has a price? So, if you are offered enough money you would kill someone you dont know and have no reason to think is anything other than a good person?

I take your replies with a lot of respect and thought. I think that reving an engine is taunting, in fact isn't it illegal all together? I thought you can get ticketed for sitting at a light revving your engine.


I used the "everyone has a price" concept because I feel it works. I may be pushed to murder if something happened such as my wife/children was killed in front of me, I would have such emotions that I push back the fact that its illegal and try to kill the person who killed my family. In that case, yeah, I may be pushed to the point where I would want to murder someone.


I understand where you come from though and obviously for a case like above where I would want to murder someone for killing my family, that would be understood and taken into consideration in a court case, but its just an extreme version of being pushed to the point of doing something illegal.

 

[MARKCORE]

Wow, what low standards they will take to catch a simple street racer when you have a country full of illegals and crazy high crime rates.

I remember when I was in high school I would get into trouble for instigating a fight. I hated it then but I complete agree with me being in trouble. Police officers should not be allowed to instigate anything legally. They themselves should not enact in illegal activity to catch criminals.

I think there is a difference.

A cop gunning it and "toying" with another car to get him to punch it should be illegal.

Now if a cop is cruising around in a nice mustang or unmarked car and another car comes up and wants to race him, then that is fine, but I don't like how you can "taunt" someone into doing something illegal, its like "lets see how far we can push him".

Everyone would want someone dead if you push them far enough, everyone would buy drugs if you give them a good enough reason to and push them enough, everyone would say the word yes if you push them enough. its the "everyone has a price" concept

:beer: Couldn't have said it better myself

 

[FordSVTFan]

Entrapment? :lol: C'mon man.

Now if the cop pulls along side him and points a pistol at the driver and says hit the gas hard, thats entrapment. But thats not going to happen.

Most certainly. Or if the officer makes a promise. Such as, he if you run you car so he can see it perform he wont arrest you. But, he arrests you after you run.

 

[svt99rag]

This cop actually jumped ahead a couple times to get the guy going. I am not for street racing but I didn't care for that way of getting someone. Still no excuse for racing but if the cop just passed him the red mustang might have just kept driving the way he was and avoided the race. Now if the cop paced him or was just passing the guy and he went for cop to race then nail him to the wall:bash: Thanks for the input guys, didn't really mean for the post to get so interesting but like Adam said, he must have been predisposed to.

 

[FordSVTFan]

I take your replies with a lot of respect and thought. I think that reving an engine is taunting, in fact isn't it illegal all together? I thought you can get ticketed for sitting at a light revving your engine.

All states have exceptions and exemptions written into the law to allow for effective enforce of the various state statutes. So, you cant compare what is illegal if done outside of the scope of L.E. duties, to that done within the scope.

For example, if an officer pulls up next to a 35 year old women in her Nissan Altima with kids in the back, and he revs and jockey's forward and back, do you think her response will be to run the other car? Not likely. The reason being she isnt predisposed to such actions and therefore the "taunting", as you call it, is not enticing. The act of the officer is still the same, yet there is a different response.

I used the "everyone has a price" concept because I feel it works. I may be pushed to murder if something happened such as my wife/children was killed in front of me, I would have such emotions that I push back the fact that its illegal and try to kill the person who killed my family. In that case, yeah, I may be pushed to the point where I would want to murder someone.

There are various defenses that could apply, including the defense of necessity. But entrapment isnt one of them.

I understand where you come from though and obviously for a case like above where I would want to murder someone for killing my family, that would be understood and taken into consideration in a court case, but its just an extreme version of being pushed to the point of doing something illegal.

Yes, you were under duress and there were a lot of other things at play. However, that does not equate to someone revving at you and you need to respond by racing. If you are predisposed to that action, you will race. Had it not been a cop, you would have raced. I know you want to apply harsher guidelines to police actions, especially in an area you are interested, but that doesnt cut it.

 

[MARKCORE]

...I think that reving an engine is taunting, in fact isn't it illegal all together? I thought you can get ticketed for sitting at a light revving your engine.

Im no judge, but I think it's called exhibition of speed?

:??:

 

[Finaltheorem47]

All states have exceptions and exemptions written into the law to allow for effective enforce of the various state statutes. So, you cant compare what is illegal if done outside of the scope of L.E. duties, to that done within the scope.

For example, if an officer pulls up next to a 35 year old women in her Nissan Altima with kids in the back, and he revs and jockey's forward and back, do you think her response will be to run the other car? Not likely. The reason being she isnt predisposed to such actions and therefore the "taunting", as you call it, is not enticing. The act of the officer is still the same, yet there is a different response.



There are various defenses that could apply, including the defense of necessity. But entrapment isnt one of them.




Yes, you were under duress and there were a lot of other things at play. However, that does not equate to someone revving at you and you need to respond by racing. If you are predisposed to that action, you will race. Had it not been a cop, you would have raced. I know you want to apply harsher guidelines to police actions, especially in an area you are interested, but that doesnt cut it.

Thanks :beer:

 

[BK04SVT]

there is only one answer to all this...if you are worried about it..don't street race. period. I know from experience that is extremely hard to ignore all the people who want to try you, but you never know who is behind the wheel of that other car.

And revving your engine is not entrapment. If your car has extremely illegal exhaust, then sure you can get a ticket for it. Hell if you drive a stick shift, you basically rev your engine every time you go from a stop..that doesn't mean "race me" to the guy next to you at the traffic light.

It is the same as the drug setups. The cops will act like they want to buy drugs, and arrest the person selling. It's not entrapment, just stupidity on the other end.

 

[SaleenFiend]

You have no legal cause to engage in law enforcement activity.

I didn't necessarily mean that I would be doing it for legal reasons. Just tried to make an example, although very weak it was.

If you meet the definition of the statute of the crime you are charged, you are likely to be convicted.

Agreed.

I take your replies with a lot of respect and thought. I think that reving an engine is taunting, in fact isn't it illegal all together? I thought you can get ticketed for sitting at a light revving your engine.

My Question exactly? I know that states, counties, and perception will vary, but him toying the other car is an illegal act itself, correct?
I'm no officer but I'm sure that I would more than likely be ticketed for revving, jumping, or acceleration at an officer.