Unmarked car instigating race?

[red9450]

Originally Posted by jrscobra
You cant win this one. Technically, I guess a cop can do whatever he wants to nudge you into a crime. they do it all the time.

Theres no way you can win this argument, even though we all know its wrong. Its the way everyone gets around acting in a decent manner. "He had control of his car" is no excuse that validates the actions. But, legally, in lawyerspeak, I guess it is.

The country is run by lawyers who can twist it up to make you sound like the bad guy, but its wrong. Most everyone here would agree. It is not right. In theory its right, but in practice, I call it dirty pool.
Just my .02
I know the police officers here will disagree and tell us how we're wrong, and thats why I told myself literally years ago to stay out of this forum, and I told myself I would stay out. I just broke my own policy, but I had to chime in. I'll leave again. See you guys in another 6 years or so.

+1 you nailed it.

I agree with this 110%


And I have come across a few idiots on the highway that don't need to be provoked much. You get along side them, and they want to prove how fast their car is by flying in and out of traffic. The officer gives a few revs, and speed racer is off weaving through traffic. It doesn't take long for "richard petty" to plow into the back of mom in the minivan with the soccer team and cause a very big mess. All because the officer wanted to egg someone on? I know this is the exception, and may only be a 1/million chance, but that IMO is too much for a violation that really has no bearing on the street racing scene.

This is all IMO of course. I know what the law states

 

[red9450]

How about just DONT street race. I've been prevoked especially late at night travels between states on large empty highways, and I never once acted on it. Call me a mom, I don't care. Life isn't like the movies. Things could go very wrong. Although, once I started driving a focus, the challenges disapppeared. Go figure haha.

The only thing that is going to go wrong street racing that mark8 is that you may fall asleep behind the wheel of that ohh soo comfortable seat...j/k lol
(those seats are superb)

 

[BK04SVT]

I agree with this 110%


And I have come across a few idiots on the highway that don't need to be provoked much. You get along side them, and they want to prove how fast their car is by flying in and out of traffic. The officer gives a few revs, and speed racer is off weaving through traffic. It doesn't take long for "richard petty" to plow into the back of mom in the minivan with the soccer team and cause a very big mess. All because the officer wanted to egg someone on? I know this is the exception, and may only be a 1/million chance, but that IMO is too much for a violation that really has no bearing on the street racing scene.

This is all IMO of course. I know what the law states

I am always provoked, even if it is someone in a Honda Pilot. Everyone just wants to race me and try to prove something to me. If i come off a light, the person next to me just nails it, no matter what kind of car it is and then they actually think they beat you when you arent even racing them. very annoying

 

[FordSVTFan]

You cant win this one. Technically, I guess a cop can do whatever he wants to nudge you into a crime. they do it all the time.

Nudge you into a crime? How does that happen? An officer walks up to you in Sears and says "go ahead take that racket set" and then follows up with more nudging, until you do it? :shrug:

Revving and moving a car back and forth is not forcing someone to do something they wouldnt have done anyway. You and others are just ass hurt because it turns out to be a cop. But had it been another driver and you raced and won, it would be an opportunity to brag.

Theres no way you can win this argument, even though we all know its wrong. Its the way everyone gets around acting in a decent manner. "He had control of his car" is no excuse that validates the actions. But, legally, in lawyerspeak, I guess it is.

It is legal in Constitution and U.S. Supreme Court speak.

The country is run by lawyers who can twist it up to make you sound like the bad guy, but its wrong. Most everyone here would agree. It is not right. In theory its right, but in practice, I call it dirty pool.
Just my .02

This country is run by politicians. The next ignorant thing you will likely say, is this country is run by Jews.

I know the police officers here will disagree and tell us how we're wrong, and thats why I told myself literally years ago to stay out of this forum, and I told myself I would stay out. I just broke my own policy, but I had to chime in. I'll leave again. See you guys in another 6 years or so.

The police officers here will tell you the law as enacted by YOUR elected legislators. You dont like it because it interferes with your hobby.

 

[FordSVTFan]

It may be legal in the laws eyes, but I still think that it is morally wrong. Street racing is illegal because it is dangerous and can harm innocent citizens and make them victims. This is exactly what these cops are doing...now when they are doing a drug or prostitution sting, they are not putting people in harms way, but maybe themselves. I guess if there are no other cars on the road, it wouldn't be so bad, but what if this cop somehow lost control, although highly unlikely, and injured the person he was taunting...that would be a shame.

You obviously dont understand the purpose of the law. It is not to write tickets, it is to curtail the activity. Police officers have a lot more evasive and aggressive driving training than your average street racer.

If a person is predisposed to racing and is enticed by an U/C cop revving, that person will race and will be ticketed and go through the court system. That trauma will likely stop that person from road racing in the future. Which in turn protects society.

However, if that person did the same race and it wasnt an U/C cop, the same risks are there, if not more, and that person would continue racing until they were caught or something tragic occurs.

That is the reason for U/C cars. If a driver is not so inclined to road race, an U/C cop revving and jockeying for position would not lead to a race. But then again that person would not race a non cop either. So, innocent people are not being lured into activity they would not normally do.

Just like if I asked you to score some heroin, no matter how I asked, since you are not predisposed to doing that, you wouldnt go score me some heroin. Yet, the drug dealers present the same argument you and others do here.

 

[AllVenom]

I would have found it funny if the other Mustang driver was an U/C as well and they sat there revving and lurching and doing whatever silly things that streetracers do. Got NOS?

Anyway, who won?

Oh and one quick question. If the other Mustang driver asked the U/C Mustang driver if he was affiliated with law enforcement in any way and that U/C lied, would that then be entrapment if he tried to race the U/C?

 

[FordSVTFan]

I would have found it funny if the other Mustang driver was an U/C as well and they sat there revving and lurching and doing whatever silly things that streetracers do. Got NOS?

Anyway, who won?

Oh and one quick question. If the other Mustang driver asked the U/C Mustang driver if he was affiliated with law enforcement in any way and that U/C lied, would that then be entrapment if he tried to race the U/C?

No!! The S. Ct. has ruled that L.E. may lie during the course of an operation to further their lawful duties.

Prostitutes used to ask U/C cops this and found out the hard way it doesnt work. Now they ask the U/C to whip out their junk. Some departments allow this to occur and others dont. It makes for interesting talk.

 

[WVUAnt]

Im no judge, but I think it's called exhibition of speed?

:??:

Its called driving a Harley....they blip the throttle constantly.

 

[czwalga00gt]

No!! The S. Ct. has ruled that L.E. may lie during the course of an operation to further their lawful duties.

Prostitutes used to ask U/C cops this and found out the hard way it doesnt work. Now they ask the U/C to whip out their junk. Some departments allow this to occur and others dont. It makes for interesting talk.

Wow, smart move from the prostitutes. :lol1:

 

[red9450]

Wow, smart move from the prostitutes. :lol1:

x2.

 

[exdeath]

So let me see if I have this right, the officer can pull up and rev and try to entice the other person to race, as there is nothing against revving.

But if the other person doesn't take the bait and the officer escalates and actually guns it, regardless if the other person participates at that point or not, then the officer could be cited for street racing...

Suppose the CYA thing would be to slow down 10-15 under and have them ride your door, then quickly accelerate and make a safe and legal pass and lane change such that it's not a race and with no speeding or breaking traction (seriously doubt many U/C cars have 700+ RWHP). Then force the court to contrast the statutes of passing, lane changes, and street racing, and prove beyond any doubt that you did one over the other. That would be hard to do when you also have in your favor the fact that you first attempted to slow down to get behind then he slowed down with you... etc. If he was blocking you from a lane change at that point it could be construed as road rage... especially if the officer started it from the right lane and you were on the left... a lawyer would have a field day.

I suppose if you are actually going to be street racing and gambling the law the best bet is to let the other person take the hit and play catch up, since as it has been said, moving back and forth and revving isn't illegal. Thus if you gun it too and begin to pull more rapidly than you think you should, let off and presume to be varying your speed and rolling back and forth just the same as they are, and make sure they take the hit and go all out before you commit. At this point the cop would be busted too, unless actually having sex with the prostitute for investigative purposes is allowed as well.

Also unmarked car or not, what is the uniform requirement when engaging in such activity? Wouldn't an officer have to be uniformed or visibly verified to be an officer from inside the car which has the same tint restrictions as the rest of us in order to make a stop? If you race a uniformed cop just because he's in an unmarked car you pretty much deserve a ticket for being clueless and unaware of your surroundings, not a good thing to have driving at all much less street racing....

 

[89YSICoupe]

Red 03 Cobra in Panama City does the same thing, 5oh at the helm!

 

[AllVenom]

No!! The S. Ct. has ruled that L.E. may lie during the course of an operation to further their lawful duties.

Prostitutes used to ask U/C cops this and found out the hard way it doesnt work. Now they ask the U/C to whip out their junk. Some departments allow this to occur and others dont. It makes for interesting talk.

Thanks for answering, I figured as much. I can't say I blame them. I mean, I always lie when they ask me how fast I was going, its only a "fib", right?

 

[AllVenom]

Its called driving a Harley....they blip the throttle constantly.

And you sir, that was some funny shit right there. :beer:

 

[exdeath]

Thanks for answering, I figured as much. I can't say I blame them. I mean, I always lie when they ask me how fast I was going, its only a "fib", right?

I don't see why people lie about their speed. What are we 3? If it was enough that you got pulled over then its a good bet the officer knows exactly how fast you were going.

There is this radar trailer up on the freeway here on west bound I-10 just before I-19 that shows you your speed. Of course there have also been construction barricades on the shoulder and all that and warnings of "fines doubled in construction zones" every 3 feet despite no construction at that location (there used to be but it's since moved 5 miles north/west but the signs remain, presumably revenue driven).

I have the stock height tires on my car with no changes in gearing and have verified my speedometer to be accurate via GPS. Yet every time I pass that damn radar people are hitting their brakes doing 10-15 under and I'm flying passed people on the off chance my lane is clear...

Funny thing that radar always clocks me at 67 in a pretend construction zone when my needle and gps are exactly on 55... I can't wait to be pulled over for that one and have a field day in court. While the average Joe just pays the fines and takes the easy way out, being complacent and accepting "you can't fight the law" and not defending themselves from a accusation.

The only time you can't fight the law is when you have actually broken it.

The only thing that I don't get is why when it's your word against an officer with no evidence or witnesses that the officer's word is assumed to be fact when the system is presumed to assume innocent until proven guilty. Word of mouth from a human being, uniformed or not, is not sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt. Innocent until proven guilty implies that your word is fact, unless there is tangible proof to back up the accuser's word. For example, video of your car alone passing the patrol car's front end camera shortly after the radar gun sounds an alert, and the close up of your rear license plate on the same car after the stop.

 

[CosworthRS]

I believe all this is done as scare tatics, just like the prostitution stings. people are gonna start realizing that they can possibly get pulled over from the person they are racing, mostly likely people will tend to stop racing.. if it works, Im all for it. Take it the track.

 

[FordSVTFan]

The only thing that I don't get is why when it's your word against an officer with no evidence or witnesses that the officer's word is assumed to be fact when the system is presumed to assume innocent until proven guilty. Word of mouth from a human being, uniformed or not, is not sufficient evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

You are presumed innocent, once evidence is put on and adjudicated, that presumption is removed. Reasonable doubt is not the standard with civil infractions. It is preponderance of the evidence, which means 50.1% to 49.9%. Also, the finder of fact, usually a judge in these situations, will assess credibility.

Innocent until proven guilty implies that your word is fact, unless there is tangible proof to back up the accuser's word. For example, video of your car alone passing the patrol car's front end camera shortly after the radar gun sounds an alert, and the close up of your rear license plate on the same car after the stop.

I dont know where you derived this theory, but it is far from accurate. Innocent until proven guilty means, you are presumed to have not committed the criminal offense, and you are not obligated to put on any type of defense or give any explanation. The accuser is required to put on their case and prove, by the standard, that you committed the act charged. Evidence is evidence, whether spoken or tangible. It is generally afforded the same wieght.

Everyone wants a smoking gun, and that is rarely the case, the law recognizes this.

 

[BK04SVT]

i think it may slow down street racing among people that don't know each other, but it still wont stop people who do know each other setting up a race and going out and going at it, but i guess if you slow it down against people who dont know each other, it may save 1 life out there, which is better than nothing

 

[stevo78660]

*removed by moderator - derogatory comment, flippant remarks and flames of L.E. and/or L.E.O.s is not permitted*

Read the rules before attempting to post again.

 

[exdeath]

You are presumed innocent, once evidence is put on and adjudicated, that presumption is removed. Reasonable doubt is not the standard with civil infractions. It is preponderance of the evidence, which means 50.1% to 49.9%. Also, the finder of fact, usually a judge in these situations, will assess credibility.



I dont know where you derived this theory, but it is far from accurate. Innocent until proven guilty means, you are presumed to have not committed the criminal offense, and you are not obligated to put on any type of defense or give any explanation. The accuser is required to put on their case and prove, by the standard, that you committed the act charged. Evidence is evidence, whether spoken or tangible. It is generally afforded the same wieght.

Everyone wants a smoking gun, and that is rarely the case, the law recognizes this.

Makes sense.

And I would suspect that most people looking for loopholes know they are guilty and are merely looking for a means to exploit the system.

I merely express caution towards absolute authority, and ask every time "what if it was me and what if I really didn't do it, how would I want to be treated."

The popular glamorizing and demonizing of street racing has caused overzealous pre-emptive enforcement (eg: zero tolerance crack downs on anything remotely related) of something that is a fringe issue, and as such it makes it bad for ALL of us enthusiasts and not just street racers.

You can show me the body of one person splattered on a tree to solicit sympathy for a cause and show me numbers of deaths per year, but to me it's still 0.00001% of the deaths that occur in this country every day and not worth the hassle that people who don't participate have to endure (eg: fighting street racing charges because a tire chirped). Liberty > safety.

People who are going to do it and be the worst offenders are going to do it anyway until they kill themselves and others. Inconveniencing and branding 100 million others as potential street racers in an attempt to save that inevitable death is crossing the line of allowing the stupidly of a few to punish society as a whole.

Busting people who are caught racing even after the fact is one thing, but purposely antagonizing people who drive anything more than a minivan or economy sedan is going overboard and painting them as a potential offender on the basis of the vehicle they choose to drive. Profiling much? It's stuff like that which causes the public to lose trust and respect in the law enforcement community and fosters a "us vs. them" attitude which is really quite sad.