Unmarked car instigating race?

[exdeath]

potential to put innocent civilians in harm's way, while other sting operations do not so much in comparison.

Want to bet on that?

http://www.cato.org/raidmap/

http://www.reason.com/news/show/117095.html

Just random Google links, didn't even have to try very hard. These only talk about deaths and stuff, who knows how many people have come home to their property missing and house trashed and not so much as a "oops, sorry".

Don't even need to mention Ruby Ridge and Wako; while not all those involved were necessarily innocent, it was certainly excessive and trigger happy on the part of the government we trust to protect us.

It's not like TV where the good guys always win and never mess up. They are human too with their own flaws and desires and political affiliations. On the other hand they have to be prepared for the worst when confronting scum. Rock and a hard place.

So you want them to have those things and use those tactics when warranted, you just don't want it getting to their head and breaking into your house at night because someone claims they might have saw a pot plant in your house with no evidence. Due process and verifying the facts >>>>> catching someone in time. We don't raid and arrest civilians for what they MIGHT do, this isn't Minority Report.

The government's role in justice is to exercise caution and equity, not efficiency.

 

[Stalker27]

Once again it isnt Entrapment. So, if it were a real deer and the game warden witnessed it, that would be okay. Your intent was still the same, except a real dear is still alive.

if it's not entrapment why the hell are they putting up decoys to see if you would take the bait. It's a *edited by moderator* setup. I thought you were smarted than this.

It's no different than me throwing a 100 dollar bill on the ground with alot of people around waiting to see if you pick it up. If you do you'll get jumped.

 

[STG]

if it's not entrapment why the hell are they putting up decoys to see if you would take the bait. It's a *edited by moderator* setup. I thought you were smarted than this.

It's no different than me throwing a 100 dollar bill on the ground with alot of people around waiting to see if you pick it up. If you do you'll get jumped.

Why don't you and your Dad go shoot a plastic deer from the cab of your truck?:dancenana:

 

[Stalker27]

Why don't you and your Dad go shoot a plastic deer from the cab of your truck?:dancenana:

I've got a better idea. How about i let you take off running & see if i can hit you 100 yards away :dancenana:

 

[xbolt68stang]

What if a cop enticed a street race and someone was injured or killed? What then? Many police chases are abandoned for this very reason. I personally don't like the practice.

I only heard of this a couple of days ago. It seems that there is an unmarked charger in Clinton NJ that is doing the same thing. I don't recall the color.

 

[FordSVTFan]

if it's not entrapment why the hell are they putting up decoys to see if you would take the bait. It's a setup. I thought you were smarted than this.

It's no different than me throwing a 100 dollar bill on the ground with alot of people around waiting to see if you pick it up. If you do you'll get jumped.

You are using specific legal terms that you dont understand the definition of, to wit, entrapment. Additionally, your analogy holds no water. Giving a person the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same and forcing them to commit a crime.

Do you really want to talk about smart? :shrug:

 

[FordSVTFan]

What if a cop enticed a street race and someone was injured or killed? What then? Many police chases are abandoned for this very reason. I personally don't like the practice.

I only heard of this a couple of days ago. It seems that there is an unmarked charger in Clinton NJ that is doing the same thing. I don't recall the color.

You need to realize that much like prostitution stings, the act is never carried out. Just as the U/C in a prostitution stings does not have sex with the prostitute, the U/C in a street racing sting does not race.

If a person so inclined decides to race when the opportunity presents itself and then they crash while committing that crime, the liability is technically with them. But that certainly does not mean the person who is injured will not file suit against everyone involved.

 

[PowerWheels]

What if a cop enticed a street race and someone was injured or killed? What then? Many police chases are abandoned for this very reason. I personally don't like the practice.

I only heard of this a couple of days ago. It seems that there is an unmarked charger in Clinton NJ that is doing the same thing. I don't recall the color.

All the more reason to up the boost.

 

[Stalker27]

You are using specific legal terms that you dont understand the definition of, to wit, entrapment. Additionally, your analogy holds no water. Giving a person the opportunity to commit a crime is not the same and forcing them to commit a crime.

Do you really want to talk about smart? :shrug:

That whole 100 dollar bill story i mentioned has been done before. I've actually seen it happen before to an inocent person. The person picked it up & looked around to see if they could spot the person that possibly dropped it. That's when 3 guys attacked him

 

[exdeath]

All the more reason to up the boost.

Hows that saying go... you can outrun the cops but you can't outrun Motorola.

How far can you possibly get with a car like a Cobra under boost that would get like 100 miles tops if driven that way...


On the other hand, it's all the reason to have a disproportionate power advantage. If you had enough power that you could end most impromptu "races" in the blink of an eye, eg: someone pulls to you and revs, rolling back and forth trying to entice you to race, and you just nail it and pull ahead so hard and change lanes before that person or his/her car can even react, without breaking traction or exceeding the posted limit, you can flex your peen without actually racing or doing anything illegal and 99 times out of 100 the person enticing you has changed his mind to save face. Such action would be ambiguous and indistinguishable from either racing or legal passing, and would be no different than an unmarked car getting next to you and accelerating and slowing down. There is no limit on how quickly you can accelerate from 40 to 75, about the only thing that might get you is some vague "exhibition of speed" or something like that but that usually requires something explicitly observable like breaking traction and squealing tires, a burn out, or going sideways and crossing a lane divider.

It is because of this I find it is easier to get in trouble with a slow car than a fast car. Fast car it's over in a few feet before anything bad happens or anybody can even label it a race, slow car you tend to stay in it out of desperation to eventually get that edge and next thing you know youre over 100.

 

[FordSVTFan]

That whole 100 dollar bill story i mentioned has been done before. I've actually seen it happen before to an inocent person. The person picked it up & looked around to see if they could spot the person that possibly dropped it. That's when 3 guys attacked him

Was it the police who did it? Did they do it to protect society? Was done under legal authority? Did the legislature enact a statute supporting it?

Please step away from the keyboard.:bored:

 

[Stalker27]

*removed by moderator - post constructively and on topic or not at all*

 

[speeddemon2000]

You obviously dont understand the purpose of the law. It is not to write tickets, it is to curtail the activity. Police officers have a lot more evasive and aggressive driving training than your average street racer.

The old Cops are better drivers argument. We should get a group of street racers and a group of cops together out at the local road coarse and setup a competition. That would be a good laugh. I would like to also point out that traffic accidents take the life’s of more cops each year than any other activity that officers perform in the line of duty. I read online that in the first half of 2007, 100 officers died in traffic accidents. I would not be at all surprised if this number was greater than the number of street racers killed in the same time frame.

I tried to find some statistics on Street Racing fatalities. The only one I could find stated that from 1998 to 2001 there were 149,568 fatalities. Of those only 399 or .21% were from street racing. Based on what I have read each year there are around 50,000 fatalities involving traffic accidents. There around 4,000 motorcycle fatalities, around 4,000 pedestrian fatalities and over 16,000 involve alcohol. I think this is a case were a problem (street racing) is perceived to be much worse than it actually is.

If you do a further reading what you start to find out is the most dangerous drivers on the road are inattentive drivers. They actually cause more fatal accidents than any other group of drivers. Unfortunately there is no effort to crack down on this group of drivers.

Don't get me wrong I think street racing is dangerous. I just question the amount of focus that is put on this issue given the numbers. I also question the ability that many states have to take your vehicle if you are caught racing. I don't think this something that that should be done in a "free" country.

 

[exdeath]

The old Cops are better drivers argument. We should get a group of street racers and a group of cops together out at the local road coarse and setup a competition. That would be a good laugh. I would like to also point out that traffic accidents take the life’s of more cops each year than any other activity that officers perform in the line of duty. I read online that in the first half of 2007, 100 officers died in traffic accidents. I would not be at all surprised if this number was greater than the number of street racers killed in the same time frame.

I tried to find some statistics on Street Racing fatalities. The only one I could find stated that from 1998 to 2001 there were 149,568 fatalities. Of those only 399 or .21% were from street racing. Based on what I have read each year there are around 50,000 fatalities involving traffic accidents. There around 4,000 motorcycle fatalities, around 4,000 pedestrian fatalities and over 16,000 involve alcohol. I think this is a case were a problem (street racing) is perceived to be much worse than it actually is.

If you do a further reading what you start to find out is the most dangerous drivers on the road are inattentive drivers. They actually cause more fatal accidents than any other group of drivers. Unfortunately there is no effort to crack down on this group of drivers.

Don't get me wrong I think street racing is dangerous. I just question the amount of focus that is put on this issue given the numbers. I also question the ability that many states have to take your vehicle if you are caught racing. I don't think this something that that should be done in a "free" country.

Street racing is glamorized and demonized even though incidents are rare because the end result is usually far more destructive and awe inspiring, thus it gets all the attention.

Same thing with school shootings and all the other things that happen once in a blue moon that the media paints to be some widespread epidemic. And it's slanted in such a way that any ignorant person who watches it sympathizes and agrees. The average soccer mom in a mini van or Prius would clearly demonize street racing and high performance vehicles as portrayed in the media, until the day she is facing criminal racing charges for chirping a tire taking off from a light or speeding up to pass and realizes that blanket zero tolerance laws are a bad idea.

There is a lot of irony and hypocrisy in our society, in that people are quick to condemn and ban and punish for things they don't like, that when presented a certain way or generalized, they are guilty of doing themselves every day and don't even realize it. Example: a vote to raise the speed limit of I-10 through Tucson to 75 through the city keeps coming up from time to time and it gets shot down, yet drive down I-10 and what is everyone doing? Speeding...

Are there more and more shootings and more and more traffic fatalities every year? Yes. But only because there are more of us. 1 death out of 1,000 is nothing to make news about but 1,000 out of 1,000,000 is suddenly an epidemic that needs to be curtailed even though its the same proportion.

I don't see why there aren't just numerous streets of varying speeds that people can chose to drive. If you like to street race then drive on those streets that have no speed limit at your own risk, and if you don't like it, chose another route.

Everyone claims to support diversity but they want everyone to follow the same rules that they think are the best.

 

[DRTHV8R]

Damn Adam reading your replies has raised my IQ! haha you are one law knowledged individual man!

 

[FordSVTFan]

Damn Adam reading your replies has raised my IQ! haha you are one law knowledged individual man!

:beer:

 

[HalfTime]

...There is no pushing. Revving an engine is not taunting. The other driver has no reason to engage in illegal activity at that point, unless it is their will to do so...

This is the first time I've ever strongly disagreed with one of your statements.

I've been pulled over for just that reason. I had an 86 Fox with some issues, had a hard time idling. So sitting at a light, when it would start to studded, I had to rev it a few times before it would rev up, and then idle again. As soon as the light turned green, a LEO parked in a parking lot a crossed the street followed me, and pulled me over. Unlawful instigation of an illegal act (trying to get the Lady in the Toyota Camry to race me) is what he told me the ticket was going to be for. He went off on illegal street racing, and how he could have my vehical impounded ect. He was a good guy, let me explain, and simply just asked me to get it running right or the next "cop" might not be so nice. He said it's all in the LEO's perception of the situation at hand, and for the LEO's personal professional judgment.

 

[STG]

I've been pulled over for just that reason. I had an 86 Fox with some issues, had a hard time idling. So sitting at a light, when it would start to studded, I had to rev it a few times before it would rev up, and then idle again. As soon as the light turned green, a LEO parked in a parking lot a crossed the street followed me, and pulled me over. Unlawful instigation of an illegal act (trying to get the Lady in the Toyota Camry to race me) is what he told me the ticket was going to be for. He went off on illegal street racing, and how he could have my vehical impounded ect. He was a good guy, let me explain, and simply just asked me to get it running right or the next "cop" might not be so nice. He said it's all in the LEO's perception of the situation at hand, and for the LEO's personal professional judgment.

You did not get a ticket. What's your problem?:dancenana:

 

[exdeath]

You did not get a ticket. What's your problem?:dancenana:

The problem is he wasn't racing and got pulled over anyway and it just happened to be a cop willing to use judgment and listen to the whole situation. Another cop with a crusade against street racing and performance oriented cars would have wrote the ticket and insisted he was trying to race, just as the cop had informed him could happen.

Thats quite a bit of ambiguity and leaves justice open to opinion rather than fact. In theory law and justice are based on facts, not personal opinions and prejudices.

While Adam will say it's up to a judge to find fact, and the officer just writes the ticket for what he observed, he knows quite full and well that the judge will place more credibility in the officer's statements. Coupled with the public perception of street racing and stigma of souped up street cars, simply driving a Mustang (esp. non stock) in combination with a cop saying you were instigating a race... come on what do you expect a judge to assume in lieu of any facts but the officers' statement? Thus taking this into consideration it's not unreasonable to see that the course of events is completely dictated by the officer alone, which is too much power to be put into the hands of one individual making a possibly biased personal judgment.

 

[mswaim]

The old Cops are better drivers argument. We should get a group of street racers and a group of cops together out at the local road coarse and setup a competition. That would be a good laugh.

I'd take up that challenge in a heartbeat. Of course, to make things equal we will run code, so your ears will be ringing and the radio will be blasting away (plus you will be driving with one hand since you will need to constantly update your position as well as keep your supervisor in the loop).

Mix into this the fact that at the end of this little race you will have to exit your car, chase your opponent for a half-mile, jump a few back yard fences then engage in what may become a lethal confrontation.

Yea, bring it on street racer, I'm up for it. In fact, I've had quite a bit of practice, backed up with hundreds of hours of training over the years.

Somehow I don't think racing from street light to street light qualifies you as an EVOC graduate.

Like so many threads regarding street racing; this one has run its course. The behavior is illegal and is not supported or tolerated by the general public. Operating a motor behicle is not your god-given right nor is it documented in the constitution.

The public dictates how law enforcement responds to problems within any given community. You may disagree with that statement, however it is a fact. At this point in time street racing has gained enough public attention that one death is too many and they are demanding law enforcement find solutions to the problem. There is an array of tools they will use, one being stings. It's not intrapment, its good old fashioned cops and robbers at its best.

The people who complain about the practice are those willing to accept the challenge of a blurped throttle. Once that happens, the consequences are very clear and you accepted them, so stop complaining.