Unmarked car instigating race?

[FordSVTFan]

The problem is he wasn't racing and got pulled over anyway and it just happened to be a cop willing to use judgment and listen to the whole situation. Another cop with a crusade against street racing and performance oriented cars would have wrote the ticket and insisted he was trying to race, just as the cop had informed him could happen.

The problem is that argument holds no water. This one officer claimed that what he did, in his opinion, was not legal. That does not stand for the proposition that everyone in that department holds the same opinion. Therefore, that officer developed probable cause to stop the vehicle, likely looking for a bigger violation, such as a warrant. The officer warned him it could happen, just like anything could happen, but it still does not support that theory.

Thats quite a bit of ambiguity and leaves justice open to opinion rather than fact. In theory law and justice are based on facts, not personal opinions and prejudices.

I wouldnt use the term, ambiguity, but I would agree at the enforcement level there is variation. The point being that those who enforce the law at that level simply make a charge/allegation. When the charge rises to the level of significant, in that it could negatively impact a person's future, that charge is brought to the criminal level. At that level, all of your constitutional protections are fully afforded. That is a huge benefit to the person wrongly accused, as it affords them due process and all that goes with it.

While Adam will say it's up to a judge to find fact, and the officer just writes the ticket for what he observed, he knows quite full and well that the judge will place more credibility in the officer's statements.

I will say with the a bench trial it is up to the judge to find fact, with a jury trial, it is up to the jury. Judges are not stupid, for the most part. Judges talk and gossip. So, when an officer lies on the stand or does something inappropriate, every other judge in that jurisdiction knows about and lends less credibility to that officer's testimony. Also, judges tend to be quite fair. The split is about 50/50 in this area, that appointed judges are either former criminal defense attorneys or prosecutors.

The point is, that an officer has everything to lose by making up a charge and nothing to gain. There is no benefit to them in writing a bogus ticket. Most officers who write a lot of tickets, stay at that position their entire career. While those that investigate, use judgment and analytical skills are promoted and move up in the ranks.

That being said, mistakes are made, officers are only human. But judges also have heard the vast majority of excuses hundreds of times, and they will determine credibility based on their history, presentation, and evidence. However, the person charged is the one that has something to gain by lying.

Coupled with the public perception of street racing and stigma of souped up street cars, simply driving a Mustang (esp. non stock) in combination with a cop saying you were instigating a race... come on what do you expect a judge to assume in lieu of any facts but the officers' statement?

Again, this presumes that the officer just decided to make up a charge for no reason, against someone he doesnt know. That is generally not the atmosphere of most agencies nor that of the vast majority of L.E. Most L.E.O.s would rather be investigating felonies and stopping them, than dealing with traffic violators (except for motorcycle cops).

While you and others here intimately understand the dynamics of modified cars, most officers couldnt tell you a V6 stang from a Cobra. They simply hear a loud exhaust or see wheels spinning or witness speeding. Whether it be a Shelby or a Civic, the act is attributed to the driver and not the car. I know you guys dont want to believe it and have "heard" stories from "friends," but that isnt the case. For example, I drive a bright red C6 corvette with no markings indicating I am anything other than a normal resident of my state. In 2+ years of owning this vehicle I have not be stopped by L.E. I guarantee my Vette stands out more than most mustangs, in the eyes of the general population.

Thus taking this into consideration it's not unreasonable to see that the course of events is completely dictated by the officer alone, which is too much power to be put into the hands of one individual making a possibly biased personal judgment.

That is why it is simply a charge/allegation that can either be accepted by the person cited or can be refuted in court.

 

[FordSVTFan]

I'd take up that challenge in a heartbeat. Of course, to make things equal we will run code, so your ears will be ringing and the radio will be blasting away (plus you will be driving with one hand since you will need to constantly update your position as well as keep your supervisor in the loop).

So true.

Mix into this the fact that at the end of this little race you will have to exit your car, chase your opponent for a half-mile, jump a few back yard fences then engage in what may become a lethal confrontation.

No doubt.

Yea, bring it on street racer, I'm up for it. In fact, I've had quite a bit of practice, backed up with hundreds of hours of training over the years.

Somehow I don't think racing from street light to street light qualifies you as an EVOC graduate.

That is spot on. :thumbsup:

Like so many threads regarding street racing; this one has run its course. The behavior is illegal and is not supported or tolerated by the general public. Operating a motor behicle is not your god-given right nor is it documented in the constitution.

Agreed.

The public dictates how law enforcement responds to problems within any given community. You may disagree with that statement, however it is a fact. At this point in time street racing has gained enough public attention that one death is too many and they are demanding law enforcement find solutions to the problem. There is an array of tools they will use, one being stings. It's not intrapment, its good old fashioned cops and robbers at its best.

I have been saying this all along.

The people who complain about the practice are those willing to accept the challenge of a blurped throttle. Once that happens, the consequences are very clear and you accepted them, so stop complaining.

It is ironic, because the vast majority of citizens are for this action and that is why the legislature has given L.E. these tools to use.

 

[czwalga00gt]

Personal question to LEO's.


Do you feel that their should be more than one street racing statute that constitute different penalties for the situation. I know there isn't but what's you're personal feeling on this.

I think the penalty for a street racing ticket is justified in many cases, but other situations that is still considered street racing under the current law, the penalty is too harsh.

 

[Double"O"]

The old Cops are better drivers argument. We should get a group of street racers and a group of cops together out at the local road coarse and setup a competition.

My money is on the Po-Po!

why you ask??? gee i dunno maybe because they have a good amount of training in the driving deparment.

Hell i have a NHRA License (S/C) does that mean i can drive well on a road course????? nope!

Just becaue you can duck and weave through traffic like an idiot on the interstate doesn't mean you know how to get it done on a Road Course.

 

[FordSVTFan]

Personal question to LEO's.


Do you feel that their should be more than one street racing statute that constitute different penalties for the situation. I know there isn't but what's you're personal feeling on this.

I think the penalty for a street racing ticket is justified in many cases, but other situations that is still considered street racing under the current law, the penalty is too harsh.

No need. Either you are street racing and meet the legal definition or you dont. If you dont, you are likely in violation of another statute that defines your actions.

 

[Bird]

While you and others here intimately understand the dynamics of modified cars, most officers couldnt tell you a V6 stang from a Cobra. They simply hear a loud exhaust or see wheels spinning or witness speeding. Whether it be a Shelby or a Civic, the act is attributed to the driver and not the car. I know you guys dont want to believe it and have "heard" stories from "friends," but that isnt the case. For example, I drive a bright red C6 corvette with no markings indicating I am anything other than a normal resident of my state. In 2+ years of owning this vehicle I have not be stopped by L.E. I guarantee my Vette stands out more than most mustangs, in the eyes of the general population.

This is the only time I've taken issue with anything you've said on this forum, Adam (and then, not too seriously) - I've had officers from a lot of different communities actually turn around and follow me for quite a distance in my bright red, chrome wheel, 100% legal Lightning (I call it the cop magnet).
Corvettes are getting to be a dime a dozen on the streets and get no attention any longer - the predators like to single out the one in the herd that's different. As I drive like the pawpaw that I am, they always lose interest after a while, but the fact remains, they take the time to investigate the vehicle, not the driver that they couldn't see through the tint or the manner in which the vehicle is driven (maybe they just really like the truck).

As to the main subject of this thread - no one put's a gun to your head to force you to street race - it's a concious decision on your part to do it and therefore subject to any and all consequences. No, it's not a 'holier than thou' attitude on my part - I've been caught 'drag racing on public roads' back when I was young and stupid (betcha didn't know that dinosaurs could move that fast) - the fine back then was only $25, but the magistrate that held court was able to talk sense into me and he was also very involved in the local dragstrip and getting kids to take it off the streets. With the current atmosphere, it's even more risky and stupid to street race and I sure wouldn't want to take a chance on losing my 'toys'.


Bird

 

[exdeath]

The point is, that an officer has everything to lose by making up a charge and nothing to gain. There is no benefit to them in writing a bogus ticket. Most officers who write a lot of tickets, stay at that position their entire career. While those that investigate, use judgment and analytical skills are promoted and move up in the ranks.

I'm not saying an officer would just write a bogus ticket for no reason but to be a jerk. In their mind with their predispositions and personal opinions and experiences, he or she saw something that is truly believed to be negative and unlawful, and are doing what he or she sincerely believes is fighting evil and protecting society. It's all in the interpretation and perspective.

 

[FordSVTFan]

This is the only time I've taken issue with anything you've said on this forum, Adam (and then, not too seriously) - I've had officers from a lot of different communities actually turn around and follow me for quite a distance in my bright red, chrome wheel, 100% legal Lightning (I call it the cop magnet).

I had a Lightning as well. I never attracted that attention, because I didnt stand out. What was the result of them turning around and falling in behind you? And for the most part, as I stated before, the vast majority of L.E.O.s see a Ford Pickup with chrome wheels. The enthusiast sees a Lightning and knows of its limited production and capability.

Corvettes are getting to be a dime a dozen on the streets and get no attention any longer - the predators like to single out the one in the herd that's different.

If Vettes are a dime a dozen, then mustangs are a penny a dozen, as the production of mustangs is almost 10x that of the Corvette. That aside, this is looked at not from the perspective of the enthusiast, but from the police officer who sees a truck or mustang, and not a Ferrari.

As I drive like the pawpaw that I am, they always lose interest after a while, but the fact remains, they take the time to investigate the vehicle, not the driver that they couldn't see through the tint or the manner in which the vehicle is driven (maybe they just really like the truck).

Too many variables. I cant conclude that each time an officer followed you it was for the same reason each time. Do you have a stock exhaust? Was it always in the same area? If you are driving a nice vehicle in a crappy area, that is a reason. Again, too many variables. I guess you will have to go with what the officer stated each time he pulled you over.

As to the main subject of this thread - no one put's a gun to your head to force you to street race - it's a concious decision on your part to do it and therefore subject to any and all consequences. No, it's not a 'holier than thou' attitude on my part - I've been caught 'drag racing on public roads' back when I was young and stupid (betcha didn't know that dinosaurs could move that fast) - the fine back then was only $25, but the magistrate that held court was able to talk sense into me and he was also very involved in the local dragstrip and getting kids to take it off the streets. With the current atmosphere, it's even more risky and stupid to street race and I sure wouldn't want to take a chance on losing my 'toys'.


Bird

True.

 

[FordSVTFan]

I'm not saying an officer would just write a bogus ticket for no reason but to be a jerk. In their mind with their predispositions and personal opinions and experiences, he or she saw something that is truly believed to be negative and unlawful, and are doing what he or she sincerely believes is fighting evil and protecting society. It's all in the interpretation and perspective.

That is what they are there for. That is why the officer is not the one who adjudicates. The court provides a discerning eye to the facts.

 

[c5 4 now]

So from what I gather from the previous posts, if a car pulls alongside of you and tries to instigate a race tell him to pull out his junk? Jurisdictional statutes may vary.

 

[Bird]

Adam - please don't take this wrongly, but I feel you've been reading too many superflous threads like these (turns my brains to mush). Nowhere did I say I got pulled over (followed but lost interest each time), same area ? (nope - many different communities), result of being followed (again, as stated - followed, but lost interest).

Just wanted to point out that officers do often focus more than you think on a vehicle that stands out - I've driven my other vehicles (Silverado Crew Cab, Cadillac CTS) in these same communities, right by these same officers numerous times without so much as a blink - I actually drive a little more aggressively because of that 'invisibility' factor (but still too much like a pawpaw according to my daughter).

Bird

 

[mswaim]

I realize most performance vehicle owners firmly believe rank and file officers "profile" them, but I can tell you from many years of practical experience, both hands-on and as an FTO - nothing could be further from the truth.

The reality is - if anyone gets profiled, its the bonehead driving a piece of crap with a broken tail light, cracked windshield or some other rolling probable cause that makes them stand out.

The officer is 10 times more likely to discover an unlicensed or suspended license, no insurance, a dope possession or warrant from that vehicle. A guy driving a performance car will yield a speeding ticket, but give most of us a beat up crankstermobile any day of the week.

 

[speeddemon2000]

*removed by moderator - read the rules of this forum before attempting to post again*

You may consider this your only warning.

 

[mswaim]

*removed by moderator - read the rules of this forum before attempting to post again*

You may consider this your only warning.

Those EVOC graduates are dying in the course and scope of their employment - something they choose to do of course, but try not to involve their tragic loss in your really pathetic posts.

As I stated before, this thread has run its course, thanks to the idiotic contributions of a few who have not had an intelligent thought since birth.

 

[FordSVTFan]

Adam - please don't take this wrongly, but I feel you've been reading too many superflous threads like these (turns my brains to mush). Nowhere did I say I got pulled over (followed but lost interest each time), same area ? (nope - many different communities), result of being followed (again, as stated - followed, but lost interest).

I KNOW. I said it for a reason. You werent stopped, so you are simply assuming what happened, when there are a multitude reasons for their actions, some related to you, some not.

Just wanted to point out that officers do often focus more than you think on a vehicle that stands out - I've driven my other vehicles (Silverado Crew Cab, Cadillac CTS) in these same communities, right by these same officers numerous times without so much as a blink - I actually drive a little more aggressively because of that 'invisibility' factor (but still too much like a pawpaw according to my daughter).

Bird

Again, you are pointing out what you interpret those actions to mean. Then you further extrapolate and make it about the car standing out. The fact is you were pulled over. Had you truly attracted all of these "turn arounds" because of you vehicle, you would have been stopped a good percentage of the time.

I can tell you from the L.E. perspective as well as the perspective of a car enthusiast, you are looking at this situation through "car enthusiast" jaded glasses. While your perspective is yours alone, it is not representative of the L.E. perspective.

 

[stevo78660]

*Removed by moderator* I wont have this conversation with you again. You have been previously warned. Since you cant post constructively and on topic while following the extremely simple Donut Shop rules, you should refrain from posting in this forum.

 

[olefafl]

If I called 911 about someone driving like the OP posted and it did turn out to be a LEO would 911 know when the plate was ran? I have not seen (that I know of) one of the new Mustangs to know if they have a LEO plate, I would guess not.


How would the LEO driving the "bait" car decide what car to try to race?

 

[svt99rag]

If I called 911 about someone driving like the OP posted and it did turn out to be a LEO would 911 know when the plate was ran? I have not seen (that I know of) one of the new Mustangs to know if they have a LEO plate, I would guess not.


How would the LEO driving the "bait" car decide what car to try to race?

Regular plates, very hard to tell unless your really looking hard. There was a write up in the Star about it a while back. There are several different ones, most a solid dark blue, one with white stripes I have seen and a friend said he saw a light blue one with a customer on the loop.

 

[STG]

If I called 911 about someone driving like the OP posted and it did turn out to be a LEO would 911 know when the plate was ran? I have not seen (that I know of) one of the new Mustangs to know if they have a LEO plate, I would guess not.


How would the LEO driving the "bait" car decide what car to try to race?

I think I understand what you wrote.

The bait car may or may not belong to the police or sheriff's depoartment. It may be a city or county vehicle. It may be the LEO's personal car.

The vehicle may have different plates on it every week.

Dispatach will know it's an undercover vehicle. Why would they tell you?

The LEO would pick the dumbest looking teenager in a car covered with racer decals. Better yet, he would run the plate and find a clown with a long list of priors, hopefully including street racing.

 

[speeddemon2000]

*removed by moderator - read the rules of this forum before attempting to post again*

You may consider this your only warning.

I read the rules again. It's been a while since I first read them.

Perhaps the post above was a bit inflammatory.