2011 gt500...aluminum block?

[SlowSVT]

i believe the bigger issue for ford is money/performance....

will the ave joe put down another 2k for .01/.02 improvement in skidpad rating.
if these are the numbers, i would say no. yes we all know that everyday street driving with the irs would be equal a much greater grip than skidpad numbers do. still i dont believe ford can justify the extra cost in their business plan...

ON D BIT

You should not be pulling numbers out of thin air and posting them as grounds for discussion. There is a bit more to it then just skip pad numbers.

Maximum Motorsports did a track test with an SN95 swapping between an IRS and an SRA and just moved tires, shocks and springs between the two and recorded a 2-3 second improvement in lap times. Imagine what kind of lead that would make after 5 laps. I wish I could find the article and post it for you (perhaps someone to could point it out for me). I agree with you about the cost thing (and added mass). None the less. The GT500 is a worthy car for an IRS. I would want that more then an aluminum block but that's just me.

If you remember I was trying to sucker Bruce into swapping an SN95 IRS into his Shelby which I think can be done without too much trouble but he wasn't biting :nonono:

 

[Captain Beyond]

still trying to figure out how a blown dohc 5.0 can make more power than a blown dohc 5.4?:??:

+1 :coolman:

 

[whitecobra2387]

The aluminum block is coming there was a post made by a tuner over at modular fords that said that 2011 will have the aluminum block!!!! Good for FORD improving the car but bad for me i got the 2010 what ever

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

LOL I can assure you it is not just a rumor....I agree with you on the weight savings though....and it will be a 5.4 too.

for the love of god, obviously its a rumor until there is a damn press release. mulally can unofficially say it himself yet it would still be a rumor.

 

[Gojira]

I would be surprised if Ford puts an aluminum block in the GT500 for durability and warrantee reasons.

Huh?????????? Umm FYI... The aluminum block is more durable and can handle more power than the iron block.

Secondly, when an iron block cracks it's only worth is that of a boat anchor. If and when the aluminum block cracks it can be welded back together.

 

[ON D BIT]

ON D BIT

You should not be pulling numbers out of thin air and posting them as grounds for discussion. There is a bit more to it then just skip pad numbers.

the reason for my comment was the report of ford engineers doing this exact testing. irs vs live in real world performance applications. their verdict was that the improved performance was not enough for price increase.

 

[Dave07997S]

ON D BIT

You should not be pulling numbers out of thin air and posting them as grounds for discussion. There is a bit more to it then just skip pad numbers.

Maximum Motorsports did a track test with an SN95 swapping between an IRS and an SRA and just moved tires, shocks and springs between the two and recorded a 2-3 second improvement in lap times. Imagine what kind of lead that would make after 5 laps. I wish I could find the article and post it for you (perhaps someone to could point it out for me). I agree with you about the cost thing (and added mass). None the less. The GT500 is a worthy car for an IRS. I would want that more then an aluminum block but that's just me.

If you remember I was trying to sucker Bruce into swapping an SN95 IRS into his Shelby which I think can be done without too much trouble but he wasn't biting :nonono:

+1, although the IRS and the Al. block would just be perfect.

Dave

 

[SlowSVT]

Huh?????????? Umm FYI... The aluminum block is more durable and can handle more power than the iron block.

If that was the case why do diesel, marine engines, earth moving equipment, industrial engines and trucks all use iron blocks?

 

[Kevin the Clean 1]

No, it would be super cool if they put a true IRS out back with the Al block

that would be perfect 50/50

If they do this I'm getting one... !:rockon:

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

If that was the case why do diesel, marine engines, earth moving equipment, industrial engines and trucks all use iron blocks?

your not reading it right. what he is saying is that the ford GT aluminum 5.4l block is stronger than the standard iron 5.4l block. i believe the ford engineers were quoted as saying 2000+HP.

 

[Gojira]

i think a person can get this car down to about 3400 with all the lightweight parts available for them.

Ohh cool. I didn't realize there were that many lightweight parts that you could shed 500lbs. I know with some light weight parts and the removal of some parts and or gutting it can be done.

Can you list said parts? (rear seat delete I do not consider because technically you are removing the rear seat and losing that function of the vehicle)

This what i can come up with:

AL block 100lbs
AL driveshaft 25lbs
4 Lightweight wheels 20-29 lbs (not including drag wheels; bogats etc)
AL flywheel 15lbs

Thats all i can think of for now.

 

[Gojira]

If that was the case why do diesel, marine engines, earth moving equipment, industrial engines and trucks all use iron blocks?

You gotta be kidding me right?

Marine engines use iron because aluminum is more corrosive, less expensive and probably some other reasons I cant think of because I dont know much about boats. But I can tell you its not for strength reasons because an aluminum block can be made to equal or exceed the strength of an iron block.

The others you listed are for industrial applications. They use the iron, not because its stronger but because its wayyyyyyyyy cheaper, secondly, they dont care about weight (they're not racing), and third they are not turning high rpms.

As well, we were talking about the 5.4 blocks and as said in an earlier post the AL are rated at 2000+. A higher rating than any of the iron 5.4's. Is it possible to make an iron block stronger than the AL... sure, but that would only add more weight to it. But as it stands now the AL is stronger.

 

[SlowSVT]

You gotta be kidding me right?

Marine engines use iron because aluminum is more corrosive, less expensive and probably some other reasons I cant think of because I dont know much about boats. But I can tell you its not for strength reasons because an aluminum block can be made to equal or exceed the strength of an iron block.

:nono:

They are both susceptible to corrosion. Aluminum oxide once formed on the surface actually inhibits further corrosion where Iron just keeps rusting away. Ever see an aluminum boat used in salt water? They last for years. Thin unprotected iron just melts away in a marine environment in a matter of weeks :uh oh:

The others you listed are for industrial applications. They use the iron, not because its stronger but because its wayyyyyyyyy cheaper, secondly, they dont care about weight (they're not racing), and third they are not turning high rpms.

Industrial equipment runs continuously under heavy loads and are expected to last thousands of hours. Cost is a secondary consideration where the expense associated with any breakdown will dwarf by the cost of shutting down an entire operation.

Aluminum is more expensive due to the extra attention to machine tolerances to counter it's high rate of expansion which is twice that of iron (lots of compromises need to be made here) and minimizing thermal induced warping which aluminum is very susceptible to. Actually aluminum is easier to machine then cast iron which is nasty stuff on the cutter blades. An iron block is cast as one piece, thermally very stable, more tolerant of overheating, has a melting point twice that of aluminum, is a very poor heat conductor which is better then one that soaks it up like a sponge which is something you don't want in an engine, is super stiff and will maintain dimensional accuracy better when stressed. I get nervous torquing bolts into aluminum threads which stretches as you tighten down the fastener to the point where you can feel it due to it's softness of the materail and are way more susceptible to stripping.

Engine blocks are generally indifferent to RPM's. Its the reciprocating assembly that takes that brunt. Main caps on aluminum blocks are more susceptible to "walking" on the block at high RPM,s

You never mentioned diesel engines. The are never made of aluminum for good reason. Even the heads are cast iron.

As well, we were talking about the 5.4 blocks and as said in an earlier post the AL are rated at 2000+. A higher rating than any of the iron 5.4's. Is it possible to make an iron block stronger than the AL... sure, but that would only add more weight to it. But as it stands now the AL is stronger.

How many "seconds" do you think a 5.4 engine will last making 2000 hp regardless of what it's made from? A street car making that kind of power would be like driving on ice and not much fun to drive. A healthy GT500 engine can easily make more power then the tires can handle which kinda defeats the purpose. Iron is more then adequate for power made in a sensible street car.

Nothing wrong with aluminum blocks. You just need to use more care with them where an iron block is a "throw-away" when your done with it. If I was going to build a new engine expected to last and maintain straightness I would opt for an used "seasoned" iron block.

I wish I was wrong about all this :nonono: The last thing anyone wants is to add weight to a car. This has nothing to do with strength. You can cast aluminum and beef up the wall thickness to compensate for the softer material but that only aggravates the thermal expansion thing and the other issues I stated never go away. Ford will never use an aluminum block in a truck application where iron is the clear choice for durability reasons which was my point in the first place.

A lot of guys including yourself think an aluminum block is a "slam dunk" but don't understand it has quite a few disadvantages over iron so compromises will be made for the sake of reducing weight. Ford Pushed the front wheels out 6" in front of the engine over the SN95 to help balance the S197 better but the weigh bias is the same between both the Cobra and the GT500. I'm sure they would have preferred to use an aluminum block but felt the added durability of iron was worth the weigh penalty on a highly stressed supercharged engine. Rarely do you hear of people having problems with iron blocks but it's more likely they are tossing an aluminum one after checking it if it can't be salvaged.

Take two highly boosted engines, one aluminum, one iron. Beat the snot out of both of them continuously over a long period of time. Break both of them down and measure for straightness. My money would be on the iron block which may get away with just a hone where the aluminum block may need a visit to the linebore machine and runs a much greater risk of being warped.

Like I said. Given the choice I would prefer an FE block over an AL block in a highly stressed street going and even a road race GT500 mill that I expect to last a long time and it looks like Ford feels the same way. On a drag car I would opt for AL. Who knows maybe they will change their minds :shrug:

You may still dismiss what I have written here but these are facts you can't escape. An aluminum block will be fine but over the long haul it will give you more trouble then iron. I'm sure other people who read this may start to think a bit differently which is why I wrote it.

:beer:

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

dude, now your just adding "but..."s to your arguement so your not completely wrong. fact is the aluminum 5.4l GT block is stronger than any of the iron 5.4l blocks. there havn't been any thermal expansion issues with the aluminum 5.4l GT blocks. most road race cars use aluminum blocks, so people who do it for a living must know something that you don't. this includes race cars whos engines aren't rebuilt after every single race, like spec miata and other grass roots level SCCA/NASA racing series. also of interest, BMW uses seasoned aluminum blocks with ~100,000 miles or so on them for a lot of their race cars(any that runs the I6).
diesels use iron blocks because they last longer over the "long haul" but thats about 1,000,000 miles too, not 200,000.

 

[me32]

so the 5.4 has proved to make more power than an engine that hasn't come out yet.....interesting.

the engine is out, ford has had it since 06, its been used in race cars. an there is no 5.0 out there making 800-1000WRHP. so how about you tell me how the 5.0 would be better for a top of the line mustang. dont get me wrong i cant wait to see the new 5.0 come out an im sure it will be in some kind of maybe Mach 1 or Boss. just so you know for is rating right now the new 5.0 at 400HP

 

[me32]

A 5.4 has too much stroke to make a great performance motor IMO. Probably why it started life as a truck motor. All Modulars have too small a bores.

I would love to see Ford develop the 6.2 Boss into a performance motor. It has quite abit of a shorter stroke than a 5.4 but a much bigger bore.

it seems that the 5.4 has been the best of the Modular motors the best one as to date on the street. beating chevys 7.0L Z06. but i will agree i would love to see that new 6.2L in a new Boss or Cobra

 

[me32]

+1, although the irs and the al. Block would just be perfect.

Dave

+2

 

[whitecobra2387]

FORD got 365hp out of 3.5L twin turbo. New tech, direct injection better flowing heads etc.......

 

[me32]

FORD got 365hp out of 3.5L twin turbo. New tech, direct injection better flowing heads etc.......

yup cant wait to See it in the new SHO, an maybe a mustang too(SVO)

 

[first5.0]

dont get me wrong i cant wait to see the new 5.0 come out an im sure it will be in some kind of maybe Mach 1 or Boss. just so you know for is rating right now the new 5.0 at 400HP

I'm thinking it's a perfect opportunity to bring back the Boss 429 seeing how they brought back the GT500 w/ 500hp. but I remember reading something about licensing issues with the Boss name. Maybe it was Shinoda or something.