2015 mustang weight

[darreng505]

2009 Season, the Mustang was still using the Cammer and this was the Camaro's Maiden Season. BMW won the Championship if I remember correctly.

Mustang EDIT Mustang won the GS championship in 2009
Four 1st place finishes
Three 2nd place finishes
Four 3rd place finishes

Camaro
Zero 1st
Zero 2nd
Zero 3rd

Great season... 2010 coming next, the 5.0's Maiden Season.

2010 Season, the Coyote has taken over and Multimatic is engineering the Boss 302 (lol at the z28). The prototype Boss 302 had two 4th place finishes.

Mustang
Three 1st place finishes
Three 2nd place finishes

...snipped for brevity...

15 Mustang wins vs. 6 Camaro, a Mustang Championship, 25 podium finishes...

The first Camaro win happened halfway through it's 3rd season, I'm sorry, that is pathetic... Please see SCCA GTS where Paul Brown tied PJ's Most Wins in a Season (SIX 1st place finishes). Please see SCCA GTS where Paul Brown tied PJ's Most Wins in a Season (SIX 1st place finishes). If you missed it.

The 5th Gen Camaro has had only 6 wins since it's first season in 2009... That is awful, no wonder Chevy isn't offering factory support,

Sure. Mustang stomped Camaro in SCCA years ago, but let's live in the now. Last year[1] was a debacle for Ford/Mustang in GTS. I mean getting beat by Kia?!?

Chevrolet 109
KIA 63
Acura 46
Ford 22

[1] http://www.world-challenge.com/index.php?option=com_drivers&view=point&Itemid=160

And its true all the race organizations restricted Mustang to let other cars compete and that sucks. But in grand am AND PWC Mustangs had a bad year. I don't blame all that on the car but they simply didn't qualify well. Some of it was bad luck and of course they had their RPMS limited (they gave 500 RPMS back to Mustang after they couldn't win with the severe pentalty at first).

So there are politics around Mustang and racing. Of course I know Mustang can beat Camaro on an even playing field (even with the inferior rear suspension). but nonetheless Ford have some catch up to do in various aspects. The new IRS will help compete with Camaro in grand-am better this year and there is still no Ford entry in GT class (whereas Camaro is there) . Looking forward to the next-gen 302r/s if they plan to make one and they better.

Again, sorry for the thread jack, starting a new one to rant on this subject would just invite a bigger audience...lol

 

[Jroc]

God I hate butt ****ing race leagues. They are so stupid to the point it's pathetic. Any time someone starts doing good they want to throw restrictions at them. That's why I don't get into racing. What they need to do is say these are the rules and if you can dominate while living within them then you can dominate and others better just step up if they decide they are tired of losing. I remember they kept penalizing Ford for dominating back 7/8/9 years(however long ago it was) ago with the FR500C cars. They did that to the GT40 program back in the 60's. They did it to the 427 Cammar SOHC motor in NASCAR back in the 60's when Ford was trying to come up with a motor to beat the HEMI's.(they seem to come down harder on Ford than others it seems IMO) It's unfair to make any team regardless if it's Ford/GM/Chrysler/BMW or whoever have to carry a disadvantage in power to weight or whatever just because they are bettering the field when they are innovating ways to win while staying within the class rules.

Taking RPM's away from a 5.0 is kind of like taking displacement away from a LSx. That's what makes the motor shine and not because it's some bottom dwelling stump puller. So now you're asking a motor that excels because it likes to turn RPM's not to turn as many RPM's as it's easily capable of.

 

[darreng505]

God I hate butt ****ing race leagues. They are so stupid to the point it's pathetic. Any time someone starts doing good they want to throw restrictions at them. That's why I don't get into racing. What they need to do is say these are the rules and if you can dominate while living within them then you can dominate and others better just step up if they decide they are tired of losing. I remember they kept penalizing Ford for dominating back 7/8/9 years(however long ago it was) ago with the FR500C cars. They did that to the GT40 program back in the 60's. They did it to the 427 Cammar SOHC motor in NASCAR back in the 60's when Ford was trying to come up with a motor to beat the HEMI's.(they seem to come down harder on Ford than others it seems IMO) It's unfair to make any team regardless if it's Ford/GM/Chrysler/BMW or whoever have to carry a disadvantage in power to weight or whatever just because they are bettering the field when they are innovating ways to win while staying within the class rules.

Taking RPM's away from a 5.0 is kind of like taking displacement away from a LSx. That's what makes the motor shine and not because it's some bottom dwelling stump puller. So now you're asking a motor that excels because it likes to turn RPM's not too turn as many RPM's as it's easily capable of.

Amen. And yes, it really sucks. They can't exactly take displacement away from the LS motors can they, so it certainly cripplers the 5.0 - which is a motor faithful to the throwback rules from the 60's/70's anyway...double damned...lol

This comment of yours is 100% how it should be and in fact would be better as it would drive innovation.

What they need to do is say these are the rules and if you can dominate while living within them then you can dominate and others better just step up if they decide they are tired of losing.

The race leagues are just another form of socialism over innovation....

 

[Jroc]

Amen. And yes, it really sucks. They can't exactly take displacement away from the LS motors can they, so it certainly cripplers the 5.0 - which is a motor faithful to the throwback rules from the 60's/70's anyway...double damned...lol

This comment of yours is 100% how it should be and in fact would be better as it would drive innovation.



The race leagues are just another form of socialism over innovation....

I agree 100%. Remember back in the day when you couldn't go over 302ci of displacement in the T/A league? Yeah it caused Chevy to actually develop a unique displacement motor(to GM) specifically for it by putting a 283's 3" stroke crank in a 327's block with a 4" bore(the exact same bore/stroke as a 302 ci SBF has) and running it in the original Z/28's.

Still if these are the set rules, and penalizing a team for dominating while living within them is stupid. It takes away from innovation like you said, and it takes away from things like motivation and competitiveness as who wants to be punished for excelling after they spent a bunch of time and money to do so? It's unfair to hurt and basically ruin a team for investing money into making parts and vehicle setups to win races(that's what a race team is suppose to be doing) if they are doing it with a set of predetermined rules.

That's honestly as stupid and unfair as the NBA saying, "well Lebron James is just too dominate, and too much of a freakishly gifted natural athlete that it's unfair to the rest of the teams in the NBA so he has to wear a 10 lb ankle bracelet on both legs." Or the NFL saying, "Peyton Manning is to dominate of a QB so he has to wear a 8 lb bracelet on his right wrist." Hell the NFL has already unfairly penalized the defenses of their league which is a good comparison with these race teams getting penalized as the same with the NFL defenses it's like WTF are they suppose to do? Your penalizing and hurting them for doing their job and what they are there for.

 

[thePill]

Sure. Mustang stomped Camaro in SCCA years ago, but let's live in the now. Last year[1] was a debacle for Ford/Mustang in GTS. I mean getting beat by Kia?!?



[1] Standings | Pirelli World Challenge

And its true all the race organizations restricted Mustang to let other cars compete and that sucks. But in grand am AND PWC Mustangs had a bad year. I don't blame all that on the car but they simply didn't qualify well. Some of it was bad luck and of course they had their RPMS limited (they gave 500 RPMS back to Mustang after they couldn't win with the severe pentalty at first).

So there are politics around Mustang and racing. Of course I know Mustang can beat Camaro on an even playing field (even with the inferior rear suspension). but nonetheless Ford have some catch up to do in various aspects. The new IRS will help compete with Camaro in grand-am better this year and there is still no Ford entry in GT class (whereas Camaro is there) . Looking forward to the next-gen 302r/s if they plan to make one and they better.

Again, sorry for the thread jack, starting a new one to rant on this subject would just invite a bigger audience...lol

Remember, this is the S197's draw down (same with the Cobra Jet in drag racing). Due to the model changeover, factory support dwindles as teams R&D the 2015 Mustang. This naturally has to happen at the end of the models life...

The Camaro that runs SCCA GTS is a ZL1 (lol) sort of... The GTS Camaro is a full tube frame car built by Riley Technologies. It is the same car used in Grand Am GT. The Boss was GTS Champion in 2011, set an SCCA record the same year for most wins by a single model... Which was 6.

You can tell these Camaro imposters by the exposed B-Pillar...

The GT out handled the 1LE in SCCA T2 for two consecutive years, the outgoing Boss has matched wins in 2013 with the Camaro. Even in SCCA, the Camaro is light years behind the Mustang.

The 5th Gen has never won a Championship, until a Camaro can manage that... This was Porsche's year, I mentioned that earlier in the season... They swept almost all their classes.

Edit: I do agree, Ford is playing catch up after this season. In order to "catch-up", they need to decommission the active S197's (started in 2012 with Multimatic) and start fresh with the S550. Unfortunately, the Mustang cannot take the season off for some teams like Roush. For only having less than 10 Boss 302's currently active in Pro GS/GTS, I would say last season wasn't bad.

Put it this way, this was the Boss 302's worst season, this was the Camaro's best... Looking at wins, podiums and points, both cars were pretty close. The Boss 302 even won the last race of the season.

Like I said before, the Camaro has had ZERO returns in organized Motorsports in the last 5 seasons... It wouldn't surprise me to see 6th Gen efforts draw back as well.

Here is the tube framed ZL1 that won GTS this year, this is where the REAL Z/28 should have been placed. You can see the bulk around the door, the strange B-Pillar arrangement.

Chevy would rather use an outsourced ZL1 with a tube frame and a sheet molded compound body then build as competitive Z/28. This is also a class previously mastered by Mustang's... They were so "overpowered" that the entire field of GTS Mustang's pitted in protest... The video is on Youtube.

I would love to give the Camaro some credit, but in order for the car to do well, the Mustang's, BMW's and 911's had to be scaled back. Even then, it took 5 seasons for the 5th Gen to roll outta bed. It's a disaster Motorsport wise, embarrassing to tell you the truth.

You can see here, the strange, one piece B-Pillar and what looks like SMC. Ford doesn't use a NON-OEM body shell, Chevy does... Ford uses the OEM Boss 302, Chevy uses a Riley Tech LS3, Ford uses Ford Racing suspension, brakes and the sponsors tires, Chevy uses a tube frame...

When Paul Brown and the Boss 302 laid waste to the Camaro from 2010 to 2012 in GTS, I was told the class didn't really count because it wasn't "true stock". Maybe so, but Ford's entry spawned the OEM car. Is Chevy advertising a ZL1 in Road Racing???

Now that is a bold face lie... and false advertising...

 

[thePill]

Comparing a $85,000 Boss 302S to a $220,000 Riley Camaro is fun but, we should weigh out the "Catching Up' accusations before stating so.

Ford has full tube framed Mustang's available, and they are used in FIA and done with a private team MARC VDS.

Here is Ford's Trans Am Mustang, this would be more in line with the Riley Camaro.

Here is the FIA GT3 Mustang... This has an on-board jack system and IRS.

Back to weight loss... or gain...

It was said that the new ILIRS could weigh 150lbs more than the solid axle. This 150 would be similar to the Short-Long Arm IRS that is typically used in low budget sport coupes (see Camaro). The SLA (Short-Long Arm) was heavier due to the presence of an upper and lower cradle. The '15 Mustang's ILIRS does not have an upper cradle, a very small cross brace before the rear-end and lightweight, aluminum arms. This system looks waaaay lighter than the SLA, but maybe not as light as the Solid Axle.

I was anticipating a weight gain in the rear, especially since the greenhouse has completely shifted to the rear.

My S550 info was usually 100% speculative, the only info I did get usually proved to be wrong. Some of you probably know where I got this from, and I trust him. That isn't saying he isn't getting bad info, he just usually doesn't since he has been allowed to speak out on some things. The 2015 GT could be the exact same weight the outgoing 2011-2014 GT's were. Wheelbase was kept the same, track was close to the same, maybe weight was locked in as well.

Understand this, If you don't see a weight loss, then Ford hasn't used all it's weight savings techniques in the Mustang yet. I doubt the engine cradle was changed... Here is the thing that gets me thinking though...

Ford has stated weight loss goals on different products... It is even said that aggressive goals have been set and they are on route to meet them. I have heard Dave himself say 200lbs was possible, and Ford mandates a 10% reduction before 2016.

While I am ready to settle for a GT at or slightly above the current GT in weight, something still grabs my doubts when it comes to loss. Especially after the F150 had some nice cuts across the board... It's almost as if Ford put that F150 out there to show people how much they can get out if they want to. The question is, in the Mustang, do they want to remove the weight?

I think Global sales could support such modifications this early in the models life. Unless weight loss has been factored in for later on, as more weight is mandated to go on by the FED, Ford may start to remove the weight as needed to maintain that 3600lbs.

We shall see... I can't count how many times Ford has surprised me in the last 5 years with the Mustang... I can't really recall a disappointment... When Ford wants to save weight, they save weight (2011 GT500, 2013 GT500, F150, 2011 Fiesta). When they want to maintain, they maintain. The new Fusion is a perfect example of the car getting much larger (112 inch wheelbase from 109) and maintaining weight at base level. The Boss 302 maintained even after the major suspension, brakes and wheel/tire upgrades from Ford Racing and the Boss 302R program. In fact, the Boss was permitted to use the GT's weight restrictions in SCCA/NASA, that is how identical they were. This actually expedited the sanctioning of the Boss 302 because most of the drive train was carried over from the GT. At least that is how organizations viewed it...

I just cannot see them missing the mark on the new Mustang...

 

[Agent504]

So in closing Chevrolet did finish ahead of Ford which is the exact opposite of what you claimed or did I miss something?

I think you may be missing something. That list you posted was manufacturers wins...including the Corvette. The Pill is comparing Mustsng wins vs Camaro wins...

 

[darreng505]

I think you may be missing something. That list you posted was manufacturers wins...including the Corvette. The Pill is comparing Mustsng wins vs Camaro wins...

No. The points list I posted where for the classes that Camaro and Mustang compete, not Corvette. That's another class (GT) in which Mustang doesn't even run in. The manufacturer point totals per season are broken down by class.

 

[thePill]

I think you may be missing something. That list you posted was manufacturers wins...including the Corvette. The Pill is comparing Mustsng wins vs Camaro wins...

There were no Corvettes in GTS this year, as the Mustang is doing now, the C6 Corvettes are on a draw down for the C7.

Most of the Boss 302's in GTS are 2012 models and are in the 3rd season in that car. 3 seasons of Pro competition in a single car is pretty cool. Manufacture Points can be won without a single victory. You get points for every position a Camaro finishes in. A consistent 4th place finish all season can get you ca Manufactures Championship.

To be honest, cars like the Camaro and Kia have ruined GTS. Those cars require so much modification from OEM to compete while Porsche, Ford and BMW get penalized for strong entries.

No. The points list I posted where for the classes that Camaro and Mustang compete, not Corvette. That's another class (GT) in which Mustang doesn't even run in. The manufacturer point totals per season are broken down by class.

The C6 Corvette did run GTS last year, Team Corvette and Team Mustang are pretty much in the same boat... Changeover disrupts the season and the teams involved... Besides, you originally pointed to Grand Am, where the Camaro shares more with the OEM Camaro than any other class. The SCCA GTS Camaro is a bad example to compare OEM cars to.

 

[darreng505]

There were no Corvettes in GTS this year, as the Mustang is doing now, the C6 Corvettes are on a draw down for the C7.

Most of the Boss 302's in GTS are 2012 models and are in the 3rd season in that car. 3 seasons of Pro competition in a single car is pretty cool. Manufacture Points can be won without a single victory. You get points for every position a Camaro finishes in. A consistent 4th place finish all season can get you ca Manufactures Championship.

To be honest, cars like the Camaro and Kia have ruined GTS. Those cars require so much modification from OEM to compete while Porsche, Ford and BMW get penalized for strong entries.

The C6 Corvette did run GTS last year, Team Corvette and Team Mustang are pretty much in the same boat...

I'm trying to follow you here. You first say there were no Corvettes in GTS which, as I stated, is true. Then you quote me and say C6's did run GTS last year. Are you referring to last year 2013? or 2012? Doesn't matter, its false for both years.

Anyway, here are the standings for PWC for 2013 and 2012 and it clearly shows no corvettes in GTS.

2013 Pirelli World Challenge season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
2012 Pirelli World Challenge season - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If I'm missing something obvious please correct me.

2013 GTS Standings...

1 United States Lawson Aschenbach Chevrolet Camaro 5 2 1 1† 9† 3 8 1 2 1 3 1 3 1 1395
2 United States Jack Baldwin Porsche Cayman S 1 1 3 3 3 2 5 3 1 3 4 3 23 4 1383
3 Canada Mark Wilkins Kia Optima 6 6 5 5 2 1 2 4 3 4 1 4 6 3 1346
4 United States Andy Lee Chevrolet Camaro 2 21 21 2 1† 5 23 2 4 2 5 5 2 5 1188
5 United States Peter Cunningham Acura TSX 3 3 2 8 4 22 4 5 13 DNS 2 2 22 2 1063
6 United States Alec Udell Ford Mustang 7 8 6 5 6 3 9 8 13 6 7 4 6 1036

...
...

2012 GTS Standings...

1 United States Peter Cunningham Acura TSX 2 2 7 8 1 2 3 7 6 1 3 2 1366
2 United States Andy Lee (R) Chevrolet Camaro 4 3 9 1 5 1 1 9 4 11 7 1 1264
3 United States Jack Baldwin Porsche Cayman S 5 7 1 4 2 4 2 6 2 6 8 12 1185
4 United States Michael Galati Kia Optima 7 10 11 3 6 8 6 1 5 5 5 5 1055
5 United States Nick Esayian Acura TSX 17 5 4 5 4 6 9 17 12 2 9 16 859
6 United Kingdom Justin Bell Ford Mustang 1 1 2 10 13 7 5 26 25 3 821
...
...

 

[thePill]

I'm trying to follow you here. You first say there were no Corvettes in GTS which, as I stated, is true. Then you quote me and say C6's did run GTS last year. Are you referring to last year 2013? or 2012? Doesn't matter, its false for both years.

Anyway, here are the standings for PWC for 2013 and 2012 and it clearly shows no corvettes in GTS.

Sometimes John H. runs his T1 Corvette in GTS. I know he used the C5 but I am not sure if the C6 was used. I couldn't even tell you if it was '10, '11 or '12.

John won some GTS races in 2010 with this.

It was his T1 car... It is possible that T1 and GTS are not compatible anymore, which is why no Corvettes run in GTS. The Boss 302 dominated GTS class in edit: 2011, I believe there was a single Corvette in the field. I need to check.

 

[thePill]

2012 GTS Standings...

1 United States Peter Cunningham Acura TSX 2 2 7 8 1 2 3 7 6 1 3 2 1366
2 United States Andy Lee (R) Chevrolet Camaro 4 3 9 1 5 1 1 9 4 11 7 1 1264
3 United States Jack Baldwin Porsche Cayman S 5 7 1 4 2 4 2 6 2 6 8 12 1185
4 United States Michael Galati Kia Optima 7 10 11 3 6 8 6 1 5 5 5 5 1055
5 United States Nick Esayian Acura TSX 17 5 4 5 4 6 9 17 12 2 9 16 859
6 United Kingdom Justin Bell Ford Mustang 1 1 2 10 13 7 5 26 25 3 821
...
...

For what it's worth, Justin Bell and Tiger racing were in the lead to repeat that GTS Championship. This happened in June 2012...

Unfortunate, it would have been nice to win another championship after Paul passed away... It wouldn't have mattered, other teams complained about the Boss until restrictions were enforced. You actually couldn't beat the Boss on the track, 2010, '11 and '12 were pretty strong years...

 

[germeezy1]

I was just looking at the door off of that car today. May Paul Rest in Peace.

 

[Ohio Snake]

None that they have said...

I wanted a weight loss, and for the most part, the '15 Mustang got lighter. But, the new safety equipment that has been weighed will bring the 2015 GT pretty much the same weight as the 2014 GT. Maybe slightly heavier but not much. The engine cradle needs to go aluminum.

I guess there is still a long-shot it could be lighter, even by just a little.

I guess we should be thankful that the aggregate weight did not increase like most new generations have.

I agree with you on the engine cradle being aluminum. I'm sure that is in the works at some point into the future, may be another generation ahead. Come think of it, my Grand Prix GXP had an aluminum engine cradle. I thought it looked pretty cool how it was done on that car.

 

[assasinator]

Back on the weight subject.
Last night, I was reading an article in the new MMFF magazine which stated the 2015 mustang has an aluminum hood (I know my '12GT500 has this) and the front fenders are aluminum. Are the front fenders a change to aluminum from steel? I'm fairly certain I have steel front fenders on my '12. I would at least expect a slight weight reduction and better weight distribution.
Any other areas where aluminum has replace steel?

lol 2010+ ALL have aluminum hoods. i had to buy my 2011 GT a hood. it costs 900.00. unpainted. 1200.00 painted. its aluminum.

 

[Jroc]

lol 2010+ ALL have aluminum hoods. i had to buy my 2011 GT a hood. it costs 900.00. unpainted. 1200.00 painted. its aluminum.

That seems kind of dumb. I would think the old composite hooks would weigh and cost less but IDK. I know a Lightning has an aluminum hood, but IDK if that means all 97-04 Heritage F150 had aluminum hoods or not.

 

[clareynet]

I'm glad I bought a 2014 because the 2017 revision will be the car for me.