The medic has the last say…. I assume he assessed the man, got vitals before administering the drugs. He could have said no.
5 Aurora, Colorado Officers Charged in the Death of Elijah McCain
- Thread starter rborden
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The medic has the last say…. I assume he assessed the man, got vitals before administering the drugs. He could have said no.
This is the thing that gets me about police interactions and "resisting". Police seem to interpret any natural function of someone trying to protect themselves as resistance. If a cop were to suddenly go hands on and I am trying to break my fall or keep balance, it is perceived as resistance against them and elicits more force. When in reality I am just trying not to have my faced ****ed up by the ground. Coupled along with the standard practice of police saying things to justify their actions, like here where one cop claims that "he's going for your gun".
Edit: I understand that police deal with scum all the time and it starts to skew their perception of the populace. I would not do their job.
Did he rob the store or otherwise commit a crime in the presence of the public?
Do the police have legal authority to administer controlled substances?
Do paramedics have the authority to administer that drug without instruction from a doctor?
Did the officers see anything that was close to being a crime?
Dude went to the store, caused no issues and was calmly walking down the street when stopped.
There was no reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime.
They had reason to contact him, but no crime was found, so they continued to stop in hopes finding a crime, they escalated the situation, made poor choices resulting in the death of an innocent man. Basically, doing everything wrong.
If you or I do the same thing, we go to jail and lose all of our assets in the resulting civil suit. They should lose the qualified immunity for their negligence and face civil and criminal penalties
BTW, the store owner and the clerk should also face civil and potentially criminal charges for a false police report.
If a cop stopped me I would answer his questions and be on my way without being dead. That’s how I would want to be treated. I didn’t hear any insults, just disregarded commands on the part of the suspect(a form of resistance). Could the cop have handled it differently, absolutely! The common theme in the vast majority of these custody deaths is that they didn’t have to happen and the escalation started when the suspect decided to protest, not the cop going hands on. I’m sure most of us have been pulled over and not immediately know why, that’s not the time to say the cops dirty and has nothing on me I’ll lead him on a car chase. Every time I’ve pulled over and it ended the right way.
As shown in conversations like this, the general public doesn’t understand established case law, street encounters and use of force policy. Rather, they use their opinions/feelings and biases to come to conclusions. Cops are big meanies even though there are millions of interactions a year that end with zero force being used.
Not one person in this discussion has asked what level the cop was in a street encounter and debated that which is what i would do. We also don’t have the cops report in front of us so there is no account of his perception, necessary under the Supreme Court to establish reasonableness…not hindsight.
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It takes two seconds on YouTube to find plenty of videos of cops not knowing wtf they are doing and escalating situations to levels that are totally unnecessary. But that doesn’t matter and neither does your point on good interactions. The only thing that matters in this discussion is the events that led to this man’s death.
Ultimately someone died and multiple people had there hands in the death. Doesn't matter who had the last say. The officer directive was the only reason EMS gave the shot. So both are at fault.
Thats fine you have that right to answer. But the law states you do not have to answer any questions to an officer if you have not committed a crime.
There was no crime committed. An innocent person was murdered by officers involved and EMS that injected him with drugs unlawfully. That is a crime and those involved should all be charged and tried both criminally and civilly.
the officer can ask, but he doesn’t have the last say or authority to administer a drug like ketamine … that medic is probably sweating bullets, especially if he administered without doing his due diligence. Regardless of feelings in this matter where we all have the benefit of hindsight, courts go by the facts, evidence, was procedure followed etc..
I’ve been talking about just those events…the suspects refusal to comply being the first event in the chain. YouTube has nothing to do with this and again, you see a video and form an opinion based on your feelings and biases. I find it funny that I’m talking about 375 million police encounters and you start talking about all these few YouTube videos of bad cops, we’re not even in the same universe. The Wall Street journal had a good article with facts about police encounters, it would prob benefit you to read it. It’s also funny that good encounters don’t matter…there’s more medical mal practice than bad policing, are there no bad employees where you are? Statistically speaking cops are more accurate under stress and making split second decisions than you prob would be so I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt in a case like this.
Ill form an opinion based on training, experience and knowledge of case law. I’ve already said the cops prob could have done something different but other people have to acknowledge that there’s a ton of missing info here. Have you read the officers reports, toxicology, witness statements if any, graham factors, high crime area? All these and more are factors when making a decision, not just a body cam with minimal perspective. I’m curious what that states law is on administering drug. EMS here must get approval from a doc first. It’s been mentioned here that cops can make that call which is beyond ridiculous to suggest along with getting a resisting charge for trying to break a fall. That kind of rhetoric is more harmful than good.
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Won't read into this too much, don't care about the outcome too much, but I do have a question: what would've happened to the EMS person that administered the shot if they had refused? Could they have been arrested or anything? If no, I don't see how the cops could be charged if the EMS had the right to refuse.
"Nothing makes me question ALL of my life decisions like SVTP."
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"Nothing makes me question ALL of my life decisions like SVTP."
Posts and likes are not mine.
the problem was that it wasnt asking. He did not ask if EMS should give a shot. He gave a directive. That changes his direct role in the situation. Im 100% sure that EMS is scared as shit. As he did not due his diligence.
You are correct about facts. I can say one thing. There is a dead person.
Well depends on how the officer handles it. In ca we had CHP arrest a fireman for refusing to move the fire truck that was protecting people at a scene. Now there was definitely a penalty to the officer later for his actions. As it hit the media there was backlash.
From what I read the guy weighed a 140lbs and got a dose for a 200lb man… I’d be very interested in seeing how these EMTs are certified, credentialed to administer this kind of sedative.
I agree, that definitely will play a part. I hope we get more out of this case. As it seems they tried to close and shut this case fast.
you keep calling it directive, the officer can’t make the EMT do it, nor arrest him for refusal.. sure they can pressure them, but thats it….. I have feeling the blowback from this is going to stop EMTs at least in Colorado from this practice. AFAIK the only person that could give a medical directive to an EMT would be a doctor..
BINGO!!!! I agree 100%.
In all honesty, I don't think the police should have been called at all. Just my opinion. Dude didn't look suspicious to me, but he really should have just complied with the police and be done with it.
But was it?
Are we sure that is true in that city? EMS never even questioned it. He just complied. I didnt even know EMS had the power to give that drug without a doctors order. But seems to be common practice in that city. They all acted like it was no big deal.
The secret investigation said so.
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