And....here.....we.....go

[Zemedici]

I dont have the details, but wasn't it Hitler stretching his forces too far and thin allowing tge Allies to pick them apart to the point there was no recover? To me that is not the Russians dominating the Nazis, that is the Nazis making a critical mistake in war that the opposition takes advantage of.

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and iirc they were not near as ready for Russian Winter as they thought.

 

[03Sssnake]

I dont have the details, but wasn't it Hitler stretching his forces too far and thin allowing tge Allies to pick them apart to the point there was no recover? To me that is not the Russians dominating the Nazis, that is the Nazis making a critical mistake in war that the opposition takes advantage of.

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yes, they had several divisions out of place, part of the reason being Pattons phantom 1st Army Group which was an elaborate ruse to fool the Nazis into thinking we'd land farther North at the Pas-de-Calais... where the channel was narrowest, but even once the landings started happening Hitler and many of his generals were convinced it was a diversionary landing and that the real landings would still take place at Pas-de-Calais...so he wasted critical time waiting instead of putting them into the fight. There was no stemming the tide once we had a foot hold in Normandy.

 

[HISSMAN]

That actually plays a lot into the Nazi loss. Hitler ignored Napoleon's Folly. Don't invade Russia in the winter. Germany was still trending towards an absolute loss in the war, but had they retreated in the winter and advanced in the warmer months they could have held their own against Russia and perhaps have extended the war long enough so that a treaty could have been forged instead of outright defeat and the breaking up of Germany into the Eastern Communist block, and the Western Free zone. They picked the wrong time to invade Russia, and Hitler undervalued the resolve of the US and the effect it would have on out allies. Hitler assumed we would be bogged down in the Pacific and focus the bulk of our forces there. He was very wrong on that count.

I dont have the details, but wasn't it Hitler stretching his forces too far and thin allowing tge Allies to pick them apart to the point there was no recover? To me that is not the Russians dominating the Nazis, that is the Nazis making a critical mistake in war that the opposition takes advantage of.

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[Stopsign32v]

I can see that a lot of folks in here slept through their history classes. It's really amazing how wrongly taught or ignorant some are. Russia beat the Nazis.. LMAO!

Nope, not really. But what you were taught in history class would explain you thinking otherwise.

 

[HISSMAN]

Nope, not really. But what you were taught in history class would explain you thinking otherwise.

Nah. Not taught in history class so much as taught from those who lived it first hand.

 

[Stopsign32v]

yes, they had several divisions out of place, part of the reason being Pattons phantom 1st Army Group which was an elaborate ruse to fool the Nazis into thinking we'd land farther North at the Pas-de-Calais... where the channel was narrowest, but even once the landings started happening Hitler and many of his generals were convinced it was a diversionary landing and that the real landings would still take place at Pas-de-Calais...so he wasted critical time waiting instead of putting them into the fight. There was no stemming the tide once we had a foot hold in Normandy.

Germany was done at this point, plain and simple. Yes the allies tricked them but in general the whole German army at this point was done. There was no communication due to confusion, lack of telephone wires because of resistance fighters, no air support, no air RECONNAISSANCE, Rommel was missing at this point because he was traveling by vehicle due to above reasons, Hitler and the high command were at ends, etc etc etc.

Like I said, we came in at the end fighting a defeated country.

Perhaps this is talk for a new thread as it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Stopsign32v]

Nah. Not taught in history class so much as taught from those who lived it first hand.

Ooooo then it must be true!

This reminds me of the people that have bring back Nazi weapons. They were always "taken from a dead German officer". Much respect for vets though, both my grandfathers were in WWII.

 

[HISSMAN]

Rommel was in North Africa during this time, and was never part of the Eastern front. He was actually forced to commit suicide due to alegations that he was behind Operation Valkyrie, in October of 1944.

Germany was done at this point, plain and simple. Yes the allies tricked them but in general the whole German army at this point was done. There was no communication due to confusion, lack of telephone wires because of resistance fighters, no air support, no air RECONNAISSANCE, Rommel was missing at this point because he was traveling by vehicle due to above reasons, Hitler and the high command were at ends, etc etc etc.

Like I said, we came in at the end fighting a defeated country.

Perhaps this is talk for a new thread as it has nothing to do with this thread.

 

[Stopsign32v]

That actually plays a lot into the Nazi loss. Hitler ignored Napoleon's Folly. Don't invade Russia in the winter. Germany was still trending towards an absolute loss in the war, but had they retreated in the winter and advanced in the warmer months they could have held their own against Russia and perhaps have extended the war long enough so that a treaty could have been forged instead of outright defeat and the breaking up of Germany into the Eastern Communist block, and the Western Free zone. They picked the wrong time to invade Russia, and Hitler undervalued the resolve of the US and the effect it would have on out allies. Hitler assumed we would be bogged down in the Pacific and focus the bulk of our forces there. He was very wrong on that count.

Wrong again, they didn't invade Russia in the winter. In fact no one expected it to last into winter. Also no one could have guessed the worst winters in recorded history were upon them. However Russia learned this mistake years before fighting the.......?....anyone?

 

[Stopsign32v]

Rommel was in North Africa during this time, and was never part of the Eastern front. He was actually forced to commit suicide due to alegations that he was behind Operation Valkyrie, in October of 1944.

I never said he was part of the eastern front..?

 

[HISSMAN]

You are misreading my post. Anytime you have forward movement it is invasion. My point was had they pulled back during the winter instead of pushing forward it could have played out differently. I am fully aware of the Barbarossa operation. They should have handled it like a tide. Take and retreat...then take and retreat.

 

[HISSMAN]

So, you aren't talking about Russia now?

 

[Stopsign32v]

You are misreading my post. Anytime you have forward movement it is invasion. My point was had they pulled back during the winter instead of pushing forward it could have played out differently. I am fully aware of the Barbarossa operation. They should have handled it like a tide. Take and retreat...then take and retreat.

Not in the least. There is no take and retreat when you are that far away from supply and reinforcements. The vast size of Russia was a huge obstacle in itself.

 

[Stopsign32v]

So, you aren't talking about Russia now?

The Rommel post was directed towards a D-day post, not Russia.

 

[HISSMAN]

Three things may have changed it all.

1. Hitler naming himself Commander-in-chief (Decided he was smarter than everyone else in the room. )
2. Invading Greece ( Postponed the Russian invasion by 5-6 weeks)
3. Declaring war on the USA (Officially gave us a reason to declare war on Germany)

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

So the bottom line is that Germany defeated itself. They encountered their limits and couldn't hold itself together any longer. This will always be the case for any empire attempting world domination, and no one has attempted it since. Which comes back to the US. We abandoned colonization along with every other western nation, but now face threats from within to contend with.

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[Zemedici]

These past two/three pages have been some of the most informative I've ever read on this forum. We need more of this kinda shit and less bullshit.

 

[Stopsign32v]

Three things may have changed it all.

1. Hitler naming himself Commander-in-chief (Decided he was smarter than everyone else in the room. )
2. Invading Greece ( Postponed the Russian invasion by 5-6 weeks)
3. Declaring war on the USA (Officially gave us a reason to declare war on Germany)

I doubt it, Russia was ramping up to invade Germany. In fact they were in the process of changing over from Mosin Nagant bolt action rifles to all SVT semi autos. I cannot say for sure but I think this is a huge thing Stalin wanted to do prior to invading Germany. Plus the Finnish showed with "mottis" the value of submachine guns.

Anyways I think Hitler's biggest mistake was not invading and destroying Britain. If he had done that he could have possibly won. By not doing that he set the stage for D-day. Without Britain, D-day could have never happened and we would have had our hands tied.

 

[Stopsign32v]

So the bottom line is that Germany defeated itself. They encountered their limits and couldn't hold itself together any longer. This will always be the case for any empire attempting world domination, and no one has attempted it since. Which comes back to the US. We abandoned colonization along with every other western nation, but now face threats from within to contend with.

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NOPE

Hitler defeated Germany. He took them so far and then at the end he basically went mad and was his worst enemy. Refused to listen to reason, fought with armies that didn't exist, became paranoid, etc etc.

 

[Blown 89]

That actually plays a lot into the Nazi loss. Hitler ignored Napoleon's Folly. Don't invade Russia in the winter.

Another American history fairy tale. Both the French and Germans invaded in the summer.

Napoleon was already soundly defeated by the time winter hit. They were actually in full retreat when winter started. The vast majority of Napoleon's losses were during the summer when soggy ground conditions hampered their movement.

The same conditions defeated the Germans. Hitler thought they would advance quickly through Germany and the autumn and summer conditions slowed them down so much that they weren't prepared for winter because they thought they would be in and out by then. Like the French, the Germans suffered their casualties during the summer months. Nazi generals wrote Russia off as a loss before winter even started and knew they didn't have the supplies to hold off the Russians even if winter wasn't coming.

It's sad how the American education system failed us so badly. So much of what we were taught was more fairy tale than actual history.