Another dead Coyote - VMP TVS

[Riptide]

CPR

How does meth injection kill power?


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[grnenvy]

Hmm

I feel your pain trust me. Is it possible u wanted more and him thinking u would run Torco and a bigger heat exchanger u could get away with it?
I see your in Fl and ideas who or where your going to get a motor?

Not what he told me via e-mail before purchasing. He said the 79mm would be fine for daily duty, and a 72mm with Torco would be good for the track.

Again, the point is moot. If there are a lot of threads with him saying something different, then I am not sure why he would tell me different directly.

 

[techwerkz]

I feel your pain trust me. Is it possible u wanted more and him thinking u would run Torco and a bigger heat exchanger u could get away with it?
I see your in Fl and ideas who or where your going to get a motor?

I talked to Tim from MPR last week. I want to pull the long block and get the heads off first to evaluate.

As far as the boost and type of gas running I honestly didn't think it would be a problem with a conservative tune. I never wanted to go aggressive on the tune until I had a chance to run at the track with race gas. This was noted from the get go. I specifically asked if a 79mm was fine for daily driving and was told yes, and then the 72mm with Torco at the track. However it definitely looks like this was too much. I am probably going to sell these 72lb injectors and upgrade the fuel system while it's down. I also will step down just a little in compression.

 

[Justin@VMP]

Justin has said it so many times that an 82mm and closed air box is what he recommands for an everyday street car. Anything more like an open element filter or 79mm pulley needs Torco or a splash of race gas.
There have been so many threads on this if u want to play you could possible have to pay.
I know with my setup its just a matter of time.

That recommendation is because of heat, you addressed that a little on your car with a fan on the HE hence me being okay with a 79mm on yours. My kit adds a bigger dual-fan HE to address the heat issue further.

I've ran my VMP TVS supercharged Boss around the road course with an 82mm pulley and open airbox, I am not afraid of trying the 79mm once I get the chassis sorted out and learn to use everything the Hoosier R6s have to offer. Open tracking is much harder on an engine than anything you can do on the street or drag strip. You are operating at a higher temperature for an extended period of time. In the straights its easy to spend 10-20 sec at WOT pulling through 4th, 5th, and 6th up to 150mph. Fuel use is very high so I run pump gas to keep costs reasonable.

I've been talking with Justin back and forth a lot since this happened. I will detail my thoughts tomorrow.

 

[jojobee]

That recommendation is because of heat, you addressed that a little on your car with a fan on the HE hence me being okay with a 79mm on yours. My kit adds a bigger dual-fan HE to address the heat issue further.

I've ran my VMP TVS supercharged Boss around the road course with an 82mm pulley and open airbox, I am not afraid of trying the 79mm once I get the chassis sorted out and learn to use everything the Hoosier R6s have to offer. Open tracking is much harder on an engine than anything you can do on the street or drag strip. You are operating at a higher temperature for an extended period of time. In the straights its easy to spend 10-20 sec at WOT pulling through 4th, 5th, and 6th up to 150mph. Fuel use is very high so I run pump gas to keep costs reasonable.

I've been talking with Justin back and forth a lot since this happened. I will detail my thoughts tomorrow.

Please do share your thoughts as there are currently a lot of 5.0 owners (including me) looking at their latest datalogs wondering if their stang will blow up anytime soon.

We all feel bad for the op and obviously would all like a good technical explanation as to what might have happened.

My personnal assumption was that this setup with the injectors and HE was fairly safe on a 79mm pulley providing you have good gas.

Thanks for taking the time to enlighten us.

 

[CPRsm]

CPR

How does meth injection kill power?


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It only does if you don't make the needed changes. Cooling inlet temps themselves richen an engine up(not such a big problem on these). Add even more fuel(methanol) without leaning out or adding timing will do it also. Similar to over doing octane on an engine. C16 on a stock engine and stock timing will lose power also. If you lower cylinder pressures you lose power. All of the above does that.

 

[svt5.4]

And the verdict is....

That recommendation is because of heat, you addressed that a little on your car with a fan on the HE hence me being okay with a 79mm on yours. My kit adds a bigger dual-fan HE to address the heat issue further.

I've ran my VMP TVS supercharged Boss around the road course with an 82mm pulley and open airbox, I am not afraid of trying the 79mm once I get the chassis sorted out and learn to use everything the Hoosier R6s have to offer. Open tracking is much harder on an engine than anything you can do on the street or drag strip. You are operating at a higher temperature for an extended period of time. In the straights its easy to spend 10-20 sec at WOT pulling through 4th, 5th, and 6th up to 150mph. Fuel use is very high so I run pump gas to keep costs reasonable.

I've been talking with Justin back and forth a lot since this happened. I will detail my thoughts tomorrow.

 

[jojobee]

And the verdict is....

In for the verdict too..!

 

[svt5.4]

Ttt

 

[Mikegee1028]

Subscribed for an update.


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[Laloosh]

It only does if you don't make the needed changes. Cooling inlet temps themselves richen an engine up(not such a big problem on these). Add even more fuel(methanol) without leaning out or adding timing will do it also. Similar to over doing octane on an engine. C16 on a stock engine and stock timing will lose power also. If you lower cylinder pressures you lose power. All of the above does that.

Cooing inlet temps won't loose power. The maf will not see the temps are cooler as you are spraying after it not before it, so the maf will not make any fueling changes. Whatever methonal content you have will be piced up by the primary o2 sensors and the tune will self adjust fuel trims so you will hit your af target just like any other day. So no running meth without a tune will not drop power.

 

[mastwolf]

Cooing inlet temps won't loose power. The maf will not see the temps are cooler as you are spraying after it not before it, so the maf will not make any fueling changes. Whatever methonal content you have will be piced up by the primary o2 sensors and the tune will self adjust fuel trims so you will hit your af target just like any other day. So no running meth without a tune will not drop power.

LOL@Self Adjust

 

[CPRsm]

Cooing inlet temps won't loose power. The maf will not see the temps are cooler as you are spraying after it not before it, so the maf will not make any fueling changes. Whatever methonal content you have will be piced up by the primary o2 sensors and the tune will self adjust fuel trims so you will hit your af target just like any other day. So no running meth without a tune will not drop power.

You missed what I said in the parenthesis about it not being as big of a problem on these engines. But with that said letting trim itself still isn't the greatest idea. You're injecting a fuel that has a stioch lambda of 6-1 into fuel with 14.7 or 14.06-1 depending on where you live. It's too early and I'm too tired to figure whether the injection will make your target lambda rich or lean.

On any car (not WOT closed loop) though spraying before or after the maf won't matter. It takes more fuel to have the same AF with high inlets, as it does cooler. The O2's in this case would see rich either way and pull fuel. On most any car it will car it will get rich and can be lazy from the lack of timing you had from high inlets. This isn't inlcluding what the methanol does, just temperature. You would think it would lean out because of a higher oxygen in the chamber and same fueling. But it's not, it was over compensated for temp. Timing does similar. Adding or pulling timing will change the AF reading even if the fuel and oxgyen ratio taken in is exactly the same. That's why when you get down to it, aiming for "11.5 and X timing" isn't as simple as you would think.

 

[Laloosh]

LOL@Self Adjust

The fuel trims will adjust to hit the target ratio. And they will do it by themselves, it is the reason why we have wideband front o2 sensors. Try again. What do you think the point of a 20 percent or so swing is intended for if it is not to self adjust different fuel mixtures?

 

[Laloosh]

You missed what I said in the parenthesis about it not being as big of a problem on these engines. But with that said letting trim itself still isn't the greatest idea. You're injecting a fuel that has a stioch lambda of 6-1 into fuel with 14.7 or 14.06-1 depending on where you live. It's too early and I'm too tired to figure whether the injection will make your target lambda rich or lean.

On any car (not WOT closed loop) though spraying before or after the maf won't matter. It takes more fuel to have the same AF with high inlets, as it does cooler. The O2's in this case would see rich either way and pull fuel. On most any car it will car it will get rich and can be lazy from the lack of timing you had from high inlets. This isn't inlcluding what the methanol does, just temperature. You would think it would lean out because of a higher oxygen in the chamber and same fueling. But it's not, it was over compensated for temp. Timing does similar. Adding or pulling timing will change the AF reading even if the fuel and oxgyen ratio taken in is exactly the same. That's why when you get down to it, aiming for "11.5 and X timing" isn't as simple as you would think.

I understand meth as I ran it on a closed looped wideband car BMW N54 for 3 years with ZERO fueling changes injecting around 1000ml. IT will not skew fuel trims much at all and the car will stay on whatever target you preset. I ran anything from 100 percent meth to 100 percent water and found the best mixture to be around 80/20 meth to water.

Why do you say it takes more fuel to hit target with high inlets? High inlets means less air, means less fuel to hit target x. This is the reason why cars require more fuel in extreme cold condition to attain the same target as they would in lets say 80 degree conditions. This is not to be mixed up with tuners adding fuel and making the target richer to provide safer knock resistance. We are assumin the af target is constant.

 

[CPRsm]

I understand meth as I ran it on a closed looped wideband car BMW N54 for 3 years with ZERO fueling changes injecting around 1000ml. IT will not skew fuel trims much at all and the car will stay on whatever target you preset. I ran anything from 100 percent meth to 100 percent water and found the best mixture to be around 80/20 meth to water.

There's always one I guess. IDK how much we injected but if you do back to back runs on a dyno the afr will show richer.

I
Why do you say it takes more fuel to hit target with high inlets? High inlets means less air, means less fuel to hit target x. This is the reason why cars require more fuel in extreme cold condition to attain the same target as they would in lets say 80 degree conditions. This is not to be mixed up with tuners adding fuel and making the target richer to provide safer knock resistance. We are assumin the af target is constant.

O2 sensor don't measure the wieght of the fuel/oxygen ratio entering the chamber. They measure the oxygen left unburnt in the exh. That's why a two step or a miss shows up as lean on readings. It sees a shit ton of unburnt oxygen, even though we know a miss burnted nothing. That's also how timing effects AFR. Oxygen or fueling doesn't have to change for the O2 to see a change. A bit more timing give the charge more time to fully burn, so the O2 will see less and show leaner. But the actual Af ratio between the two never really changed. It's true I swear lol
I'll pull up a customers data logs and post them up soon.

 

[Laloosh]

There's always one I guess. IDK how much we injected but if you do back to back runs on a dyno the afr will show richer.


O2 sensor don't measure the wieght of the fuel/oxygen ratio entering the chamber. They measure the oxygen left unburnt in the exh. That's why a two step or a miss shows up as lean on readings. It sees a shit ton of unburnt oxygen, even though we know a miss burnted nothing. That's also how timing effects AFR. Oxygen or fueling doesn't have to change for the O2 to see a change. A bit more timing give the charge more time to fully burn, so the O2 will see less and show leaner. But the actual Af ratio between the two never really changed. It's true I swear lol
I'll pull up a customers data logs and post them up soon.

The car was using a multiple nozzle set up adding up to something along the line of a DO10-DO12 single nozzle and producting around 430-440whp.

I agree with what you said. However the ingested air pre combustion doesnt mean much. It is all about what happend during and post combustion and thats why adding meth ontop of whatever tune you have will not damage or ruin anything on this car. The car constantly measures the amount of air in the exhaust stream. Say you targeted this car to hit .78 and tuned it to run as close to 1.00 trims as you can on whatever fuel. If you add methanol injection to the car and change nothing, the car will not make less power and will self adjust the trims to still hit that .78 but your 1.00 trim might be a .95 at worse (which is nothing). The car will also run at peak timing which will burn up more fuel as well. I love wideband car. As more and more factor cars come with them, tuning a/fs became less and less troublesome. Now put beth a c6z06, and yea it wont run right unless you adjust.

 

[CPRsm]

Again, not as big of an issue on this car like I said. I don't recall saying it would hurt anything. Just that they were a band aid with more variables for potential problems. IDK that a wideband solves the problem. WOT corrections are reactionary and not a fix all. At least not to me. Same goes for knock sensors. Reactionary equipment for miscalculations. I prefer intercooling done right for less worries.

Couldn't find the logs, but did find an article I remembered from a while back. This was the inlets being dropped, no meth.

An hour later, the Dez Racing upper intake manifold was bolted into place-keep in mind the water tank in the rear of the car and water lines were already plumbed. Our first set of pulls was done to dial in the air/fuel ratio, and we ran the same 16 degrees of ignition timing. You might be surprised to learn the results were not as expected; Dez had to pull an enormous amount of fuel from the injector duty cycle to get the car to even run properly. Output was only 594 rwhp and 508 rwtq. Why the big drop off in horsepower? The air was too cold, and the engine would barely run with just 16 degrees of timing. Despite a valiant effort in tuning-which concluded with an enormous drop in fuel delivery-the air/fuel ratio was still off the chart and overly rich. The car sounded really lazy during the pulls. Simply put, the engine was too inefficient with the low ignition timing and super-cold air-inlet temperature. The cylinders were not hot enough to burn properly.

Read more: Dez Racing's Air-To-Water Intercooler Install - Chillin' Like A Villain - Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords Magazine

My own car dove off the AF map below 10.00
Trimmed fuel enough to pick up 50rwhp but it was still off the map. And this was an A/W where inlets weren't bad at all. It just got stupid when I added ice. Not sure how much was ait or maf compensation, but would say not much since the inlets were only about 50deg colder and I was still running the factory calibration in that part of the tune. But who knows for sure. Planned to figure it out whenever I got the time to play with it again.

 

[mastwolf]

The fuel trims will adjust to hit the target ratio. And they will do it by themselves, it is the reason why we have wideband front o2 sensors. Try again. What do you think the point of a 20 percent or so swing is intended for if it is not to self adjust different fuel mixtures?

Just cause the computer will try and fix the problem does not mean it should be done.

Your tuning skills must be out of this world.

 

[Laloosh]

Just cause the computer will try and fix the problem does not mean it should be done.

Your tuning skills must be out of this world.

Please make sure you know what you are talking about prior to making fun of people who do. Your logic works...on cars that use different ecu parameters. Catch up with the times and read or try it for yourself like I did. Meth will not skew the trims enough to even worry about them