autoblog tests the zl1

[Chris!]

^ I'll already have a set of Nitto invos in my garage when I go to pick it up.

 

[DBK]

The tires aren't even that bad. If you really want them to hook up, you just have to really heat them up. If you see people putting up crappy times with a 2013 it's because the tires haven't been warmed up enough. When hot, they are a very capable tire for getting a decent launch.

 

[svtsupersnake]

Do you even drive a stick? I have never driven a car that will not let me fully engage the clutch while the gas peddle is to the floor. Again your information is all false!

see a post with no name calling, I am still shaking my head in disbelief. wow!

LOL. Its really not. My friend's acura and my other friends a4 are the same. If you are holding the gas pedal then push in the clutch the car will stop accelerating. I won't even argue this because I know from first hand experience. There is a reason the zl1 advertises that you don't need to take your foot of the gas when shifting and also there is a reason they invented a WOT box in the first place. So no its not misinformation.

 

[Chris!]

No doubt they are good when warm.

But there is definitely better all around tires, that last longer than the eagle f1s out there

 

[svtsupersnake]

How much are the michelins on the z06 and zr1? Are these the best tires for the street and strip? I'm wondering what is the best tire for someone who wants to daily drive there car but also get performance out of it and without the tires burning out after 20k miles like chris says his did.

 

[thePill]

Hell, I'd argue the 285's are better than 325's on this car because they allow just enough wheel spin with launch control not to bog down the car. (1st goes to 60 and we all have read how good the launch control works).

325's would probably bog the car down unless you launched at 3000rpms or higher but then you run the risk of introducing too much wheel spin at those rpms.

Oh man, I can't believe I didn't think of that... The ZL1 bogged down on that 13.06 run [nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9Nv7yLRjJo"]Motoramic Drives: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - YouTube[/nomedia].

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Exactly. 600hp and 550(?)Tq is a ton but the car is designed to make the most of it (60+ in 1st).

Hell, my 03 cobra without tc or launch control gets solid traction in 1st though an IRS launching off a 3,000rpm 2step (2#'s of boost) with 818 turbo whp (read:boggy then -boost all at once!) in 40* weather! (3.55's, 28" 315 nt05r's, Detroit trutrac)

It barely kisses 60 in first (assuming a light burnout). I will put in 3.27's and surely improve but nonetheless, if I get decent traction on street tires through an IRS in 40* temps with a crappier chassis pushing 818whp, how the hell will a car with a much better chassis, solid axle, launch control, tcs, a longer 1st gear, equally tall tires(maybe taller) and only 550~whp have a hard time doing so on decently sticky tires?

The whole argument is bunk in my opinion, proper mechanical gearing/ratios coupled with excellent electronic assists makes for a winning combination. No questions about it.

Hell, tire heights means more for traction than widths. You could put 325/30/17's (25.6" tall I believe) on a '13 gt500 and be if even marginally better than the factory 28" 285's.

 

[thePill]

LOL. Its really not. My friend's acura and my other friends a4 are the same. If you are holding the gas pedal then push in the clutch the car will stop accelerating. I won't even argue this because I know from first hand experience. There is a reason the zl1 advertises that you don't need to take your foot of the gas when shifting and also there is a reason they invented a WOT box in the first place. So no its not misinformation.

Once you push the clutch, the trick is to select your gear via the manual gear selector (known as the "stick") as fast as humanly possible... Then quickly release the clutch all while your foot remains on the gas peddle, keeping the throttle wide open.

Yes, the car will stop accelerating when you push the clutch in but you need to get in gear and release the clutch as well...

Team Camaro just tried to market power shifting, calling it "No Lift Shift"... I just call it "No Shit"...

 

[svtsupersnake]

Once you push the clutch, the trick is to select your gear via the manual gear selector (known as the "stick") as fast as humanly possible... Then quickly release the clutch all while your foot remains on the gas peddle, keeping the throttle wide open.

Yes, the car will stop accelerating when you push the clutch in but you need to get in gear and release the clutch as well...

Exactly. Yea you can keep your foot on but the car wont go anywhere with the clutch in engage. The WOT box as I understand and I could be wrong about my understand of the WOT box or the feature the zl1 has makes it so the car keeps going and doesn't slow down for that split second you engage the clutch so you can just keep shifting. Basically like an auto or paddle shifter car does.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Oh man, I can't believe I didn't think of that... The ZL1 bogged down on that 13.06 run Motoramic Drives: 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 - YouTube.

I'm saying on the factory settings, the bigger tire might/would probably bog. Reprogramming the 2step could help remedy that but then you have to test and tune till you find a sweet spot.

On my car, I can launch my 500whp tune at 3500rpms with 4#'s of boost off the line but when I step up to my 818wjp tune, I can only launch with 3000rpms if I want 1st to be remotely useful (and then I only stay about 1/3rd throttle from 25~ till is grab second, still pulling 8-9#'s of boost-turbo's=necessary driver mod for traction).

I can't upload that vid with the zl1. if it had crazy wheel spin, it's probably the driver/setup on the launch control.

 

[thePill]

Exactly. Yea you can keep your foot on but the car wont go anywhere with the clutch in engage. The WOT box as I understand and I could be wrong about my understand of the WOT box or the feature the zl1 has makes it so the car keeps going and doesn't slow down for that split second you engage the clutch so you can just keep shifting. Basically like an auto or paddle shifter car does.

Impossible, the whole mechanical function of a clutch is to disengage the transmission from the engine. All the "No Lift Shift" does is limit the throttle while power shifting, it is power shifting for dummies... Once the clutch is depressed, the car will only continue to move due to momentum generated by the previous gear. While the clutch is engaged, the transmission is disengaged (sorta like neutral) and will not move.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Exactly. Yea you can keep your foot on but the car wont go anywhere with the clutch in engage. The WOT box as I understand and I could be wrong about my understand of the WOT box or the feature the zl1 has makes it so the car keeps going and doesn't slow down for that split second you engage the clutch so you can just keep shifting. Basically like an auto or paddle shifter car does.

I have a wotbox/2step on my car (they are only $200). The wotbox let's you shift with your foot to the floor if you're quick enough to grab a gear within .2-.5 (programmable) seconds. It does this by pulling timing. The transmission will not continue to transfer power to the rear wheels when you engage the clutch but the benefit is much less resisting pressure from the shifter linkage (since rotational inertia is no longer consumed by power because of the pulled timing; there exists say 5#'s of needed pressure to grab the next gear vs say 30#'s of force traditionally needed to move the shifter). Also, since timing is pulled, staying wot for that .2-.5 seconds lets boost stay in the combination. Now in an sc car where boost is relatively instant, this isn't as important but still helpful.

Now in a turbo car, where boost must spool each time you go wot, this is a huge help. Considering that speed shifting a turbo car will still lose boost on each shift, a wotbox makes a turbo car much quicker and much more consistant.

Personally on my car, I can be in 2nd gear at 60, go wot, keep my foot floored, row into 3rd, then 4th and literally never lose boost. This allow's me to keep pace with much quicker vehicles (worked gsxr750's, etc) than 818whp should allow me too, it's almost like having a quick shifting automatic but not quite.

Even still, on an sc car, you will see improvements in et/mph because the 1-3 tenths of a second spent re-spinning the supercharger after a shift will be gone so in essence you gain 1-3 10ths of wot acceleration down the track. Again on a turbo car it's a much bigger gain as each shift would otherwise require a requisite .2-.4 seconds of re-spooling the turbos; this is because even at high speed, turbos cannot "spin" or rather build boost as quickly as going wot in a twin screw or roots compressed vehicle.

Hope that helps.

 

[svtsupersnake]

I have a wotbox/2step on my car (they are only $200). The wotbox let's you shift with youre foot to the floor if your quick enough to grab a gear within .2-.5 (programmable) seconds. It does this by pulling timing. The transmission will not continue to transfer power to the rear wheels when you engage the clutch but the benefit is much less resisting pressure fro the shifter linkage (since rotational inertia is no longer consumed by power because of the pulled timing; their exists say 5#'s of needed pressure to grab the next gear vs say 30#'s of force traditionally needed to move the shifter). Also, since timing is pulled, staying wot for that .2-.5 seconds lets boost stay in the combination. Now in an sc car where boost is relatively instant, this isn't as important but still helpful.

Now in a turbo car, where boost must spool each time you go wot, this is a huge help. Considering that speed shifting a turbo car will still lose boost on each shift, a wotbox makes a turbo car much quicker and much more consistant.

Personally on my car, I can be in 2nd gear at 60, go wot, keep my foot floored, row into 3rd, then 4th and literally never lose boost. This allow's me to keep pace with much quicker vehicles (worked gsxr750's, etc) than 818whp should allow me too, it's almost like having a quick shifting automatic but not quite.

Even still, on an sc car, you will see improvements in et/mph because the 1-3 tenths of a second spent re-spinning the supercharger after a shift will be gone so in essence you gain 1-3 10ths of wot acceleration down the track. Again on a turbo car it's a mug bigger gain as each shift would otherwise require a requisite .2-.4 seconds of re-spooling the turbos; this is because even at high speed, turbos cannot "spin" or rather build boost as quickly as going wot in a twin screw or roots compressed vehicle.

Hope that helps.

So then power shifting without this easier features is not nearly as efficient correct? And also since auto is basically the car compensating for the driver having to push in the clutch and gas and all that jazz what do autos do to allow for continuous acceleration through the computer shifting? Cuz as we all know on an auto you can just hold it all day long and the car won't slow down for a second when it shifts or if it does its virtually unoticeable.

 

[ON D BIT]

LOL. Its really not. My friend's acura and my other friends a4 are the same. If you are holding the gas pedal then push in the clutch the car will stop accelerating. I won't even argue this because I know from first hand experience. There is a reason the zl1 advertises that you don't need to take your foot of the gas when shifting and also there is a reason they invented a WOT box in the first place. So no its not misinformation.

Wow, I have run out of words to describe you. Completely dumbfounded! :nonono:

You stated one cannot shift at WOT(in yellow below). I stated you could and RY's vid proved my very statement.

Well I mean you can't shift with the throttle down unless there is a WOT box or something like that which the zl1 will have. On normal cars when you push down the clutch the throttle doesn't work again till the clutch is off.

On stick shift cars when the clutch is fully depressed the throttle will still work(the reason why rpm and engine noise go higher during this stage). The difference being it is not in gear, which means the wheels do not turn. When shifting this process(full throttle shifts) takes hundredths of a sec(.03 sec for example) if you are good. Wasting very little time.

What the magazines do however is lift off throttle completely then press the clutch taking a half second(.5+ sec) or longer without power. Multiply this 2 or times and they could be off the accelerator 1 to 2 secs during the run.
These numbers are not exact but the main point is that when you shift with no throttle at all like the magazines they lose power 3 to 5 times longer than shifting with the throttle down throughout the entire run.

 

[svtsupersnake]

Wow, I have run out of words to describe you. Completely dumbfounded! :nonono:

You stated one cannot shift at WOT(in yellow below). I stated you could and RY's vid proved my very statement.



On stick shift cars when the clutch is fully depressed the throttle will still work(the reason why rpm and engine noise go higher during this stage). The difference being it is not in gear, which means the wheels do not turn. When shifting this process(full throttle shifts) takes hundredths of a sec(.03 sec for example) if you are good. Wasting very little time.

What the magazines do however is lift off throttle completely then press the clutch taking a half second(.5+ sec) or longer without power. Multiply this 2 or times and they could be off the accelerator 1 to 2 secs during the run.
These numbers are not exact but the main point is that when you shift with no throttle at all like the magazines they lose power 3 to 5 times longer than shifting with the throttle down throughout the entire run.

Ok fine for the sake of the argument I will accept what you say so if thats what they do then why does everyone agree that the shelby does 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and quarter mile in like 12.4. STOCK. That means no new tires no nothing. And motortrend and autoblog got those same numbers? They should have been slower then if they are taking their foot off completely.

 

[ON D BIT]

And also since auto is basically the car compensating for the driver having to push in the clutch and gas and all that jazz what do autos do to allow for continuous acceleration through the computer shifting?

Automatics dont have continuous acceleration. They stop acceleration for a split second just like manual tranny's do. The difference is that they are usually faster than most drivers, and they are consistent. They take the same amount of time for each shift which is great for bracket racing.

Generally pro drivers with manuals shift faster than the automatic tranny. With technology however this is changing. The automatic can shift just as fast or faster than the professional race car driver.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Exactly. Traditional power shift still sees much higher loads being thrown against the requisite transmission internals (the assumed 5#'s of necessary pressure vs 30#'s when simply power shifted without a wotbox) so this is indeed a recipe for quickly wearing down internal bits of the transmission.

With automatics, the motor stays loaded due to the fluid chambers from what I understand. Pressure builds against the transmission gates internally within the transmission itself but this occurs for such a short time that literally little if any excess wear occurs in a properly spec'd auto for the given application.

This is the reason most turbo cars are faster with automatics than manual's given the average driver. It's also the reason automatics can build boost from power braking at a dead stop vs rev dropping a manual car since the power is constantly engaged and flowing to the drive wheels.

Take an automatic turbo diesel f350, powerbrake it and your boost gauge will begin to build. Take a manual diesel truck, hold half throttle in neutral and no boost will build. Now in that same manual truck, go wot and quickly look at the boost gauge before pegging the rev limiter, and some boost (not equivalent to the automatic though) will build.

Now imagine your driving a turbo awd car like an Sti that is only manual. The only way to get a great launch without a two step is to time the moment you go wot while in 1st with te cluth fully engaged to allow you to launch just as the last amber has turned off and the green ligh is triggered. -I mean that you cannot hold half throttle at 5000rpms, you must go wot and stay wot so that right as the tach reaches 5000rpms, you can let off the clutch and not relight or have missed the ideal starting time.

Why must you stay wot? Because once you let off the gas pedal the motor will lose any built boost. Try this: launch a cobra at 2500rpms just holding 2500rpms in 1st with the clutch in. Now launch the same cobra but be in 1st with the clutch in and stay wot from idle until 2500rpm. You'll notice much more tire spin/much less bog launching wot from idle because the motor will have built boost as well as the traditional power available otherwise at 2500rpms.

I guess in sum, when you are going 70mph at 2000rpms and tip into te throttle but don't build any boost, you will see a little bit of acceleration. Now go wot at 70, which will build boost and you will see much more power. (as the laws of physics literally put load and stress on the motor/drivetrain seeing that the vehicle is now moving and subject to the laws that govern).

An automatic is already constantly loading the powe to the drive wheels where as a manual will not until you have fully dis engaged the clutch since the clutch being engaged literally transfers 0 power to the drive wheels.

That was probably confusing, sorry.

 

[ON D BIT]

Ok fine for the sake of the argument I will accept what you say so if thats what they do then why does everyone agree that the shelby does 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and quarter mile in like 12.4. STOCK. That means no new tires no nothing. And motortrend and autoblog got those same numbers? They should have been slower then if they are taking their foot off completely.

GEE I dont know?:shrug:

The 2011/2012 gt500 is a 12 flat car just like the 2012 zl1.

I have already answered this question, in a response to one of your posts, in this very thread page 3 post 64!:bash:

MD03SVT -----------------2.019 - 12.085 @ 118.95mph 2010 STOCK napierville dragway montreal canada 09/05/09
2010 Ford Shelby GT500 - Muscle Mustang & Fast Fords

Considering the KR ran 11.589/122.16, we were pleased and decided to swap back the stock F1 rubber measuring 285/35ZR-19-inches. On our first try we ripped off a clean launch (1.91 60-foot) and despite spinning all the way through Second, we mustered an 11.95 at a screaming 120-plus mph. It was our best run on the stock tires

2011 GT500

In the latest issue of MM&FF (October), they test a bonestock 2011 GT500 in the 1/4 mile. The best time was 12.02 @ 119 mph in unfavorable conditions. They tested at Brandenton in Florida in 95-degree heat with high humidity. BTW the 2010 ran an 11.95 @ 120 mph at Englishtown. They did say that the 2011 was quicker than the 2010 and under equal conditions, it would be 2-3 10ths quicker in the 1/4. :burnout:

Link post # 64...http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...823676-autoblog-tests-zl1-3.html#post11427219

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

So then power shifting without this easier features is not nearly as efficient correct?

did you watch the video i posted?

[youtube_browser]Zf357ZY1SHI[/youtube_browser]

you tell me how efficient that is. if you can actually power shift 'well', then you probably won't see any benefit from a WOT box in this speed range. hell, probably wouldn't notice a difference with one.

Ok fine for the sake of the argument I will accept what you say so if thats what they do then why does everyone agree that the shelby does 0-60 in 4.1 seconds and quarter mile in like 12.4. STOCK. That means no new tires no nothing. And motortrend and autoblog got those same numbers? They should have been slower then if they are taking their foot off completely.

motortrend 'corrects' their numbers for altitude and whether conditions - I.E., the numbers they publish aren't he numbers they actually ran. autoblog may or may not powershift, may or may not have good drivers, may or may not run on a dragstrip.

we could save a lot of time here if you spent some time on google before each post you make.

 

[tt335ci03cobra]

Even with a pro power shifter a wotbox is benificial. Not near as much as it benefits a decent driver but still will see an improvement.

Where a decent driver will see .5+ second improvement, a pro power shifter may only see .07-.1 improvement.