Can the GT350's be supercharged? Or any type of forced induction?
- Thread starter OKShelby
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I am not, but you guys make I seem like it's a sin to go fi on this thing. And yes I will move right along right past you in your STOCK Holy Grail of a car.
Not on a road course you won't. And yes, I will be using it for that. I don't care if you're faster in a straight line, and I don't street race. So, there we are. You win at your race, I win at mine. It's not a sin to go FI, it just won't work well. You don't seem to understand that.
I totally understand what your saying and it was not really directed at you, just some of these other people act like its the end of the world to go fi on this car. Is it the best platform?? No, but who cares. And you will never pass me on a road course!!!! Lol cause you'll will never find me on one. I know my place. And I'm not talking about street racing, I'm just saying you happen to driven down the highway and you just happen to run in to someone who gives you the nod, tell me you have never done it??? Come on!!!
I actually haven't in almost ten years now. Promise. Too risky when you have a family to support. That's part of getting older unfortunately, haha!
:dw::dw::dw:
Let me put it to you this way, as maybe it will make more sense.
Assuming you know something about overlap and how turbo cams differ from NA cams; trying to boost this engine, clearly not made for boost, would be like taking a 9.5:1 turbo cam motor and trying to run it NA ... you're just going to have a bad time. Some of us just seem to pick up on that a little more than others.
Secondly, no one is saying not to mod it ... Doing the (ricer) math based on the CI of this motor and gains from other FPC cars, we fully expect this car to hit damn near 600 whp all motor. Thats not blistering by today's standards, but its not exactly a snail either.
I bet an R car with 600rwhp would feel insane. I want wheels that light on my Focus, I can't imagine how much quicker it would feel.
Generally speaking the better the engine is in NA form the better it will be in FI as long as the fuel will support it without detonation. Meaning if you have a engine that makes 478hp at 8:1 compression ratio and then 543 at 11.8:1 with no other changes. Adding a supercharger to both should take the 8:1 from 1135 to 1290 however it actually produces 1350 instead with only changing compression ratios to the 11.8:1.
Now you are correct that an NA engine, centrifugal, positive displacement and turbo car all responded differently to valve events for optimal performance in each application.
600rwhp is not slow but in this day and age of street brawlers where 1,000hp is becoming common place it is. Personally I think an NA car is more fun to drive having owned or driven every form.
This car is geared to being a high winding NA corner carver. That's what I want personally in my next Mustang toy. I'm not going to be mad at anyone who wants to supercharge it, more power to them.(no pun intended)
This car's cams will work just fine in a turbo application. Your analogy is ridiculous, especially when you do not know these cam specs, and then there are more to cam specs than just lift and duration. A high rpm n/a cam will be just fine on a turbo car. Even if spool up is not optimized, it will still have a stronger low end than stock. Look at the peak torque rpm....
Also, your argument about a sufficient flowing hot side killing spool is also highly suspect. The compression is going to keep boost relatively low, so the intake to exhaust ratio will not get out of hand, plus, even if it feels "laggy" it will still have more low end than it did stock.
I think the arguments for upsetting the balance of the car, possible shallow ring height, and that a turbo 350 could be over powered on a road course are valid, but saying this engine will not work turbocharged because the crank journals are offset 180 degrees instead of 90 is completely ignorant.
I had this big long post typed out in response to this, but i realize its my fault for my initial statement being confusing. For simplicity sake, i wasnt strictly comparing either motor's ability to make power with my example, just basically showing how silly it would be to try to boost the GT350 by making that comparison.
Now, on to a few more points, a high RPM N/a cam will most certainly not be fine on a turbo car unless that car has VVT*. N/a cams like large amounts of overlap, because they rely on the exhaust to pull fresh air into the cylinders. On turbo cars however, we have seen pressure in the exhaust manifold up to 1.5-2x that in the intake manifold ... think about that with large amounts of overlap.
So, that brings me to the next point. I have been tuning turbo cars for years now, and yes a high flowing hot side will always spool slower, it just will. Not only that, but transient response (think street driving) will also suffer. Torque is a derivative of velocity, both intake and exhaust, and an NA motor will be able to pull air in more quickly than a large laggy turbo in DD conditions. Now, we can advance the intake cam a bit during spool and get some pretty bitchin improvements, but the fact remains that it will spool slower than something smaller. You can however get pretty clever with today's electric throttle bodies, a lot of the time i will adjust the applied pedal position to hide a lot of the lag. For example, if you push the pedal down 10%, i have the throttle body open 20%. Doesnt feel any more laggy, but it certainly is, but i digress, this isnt a tuning thread. Back to the point, adding to my section above this one, we can also reduce intake cam advance and eliminate overlap on the top end to keep everybody happy. This is one of the nice things about a VVT motor.
Lastly, no one has said this motor will be bad for boost strictly because its FPC, in fact, Mclaren's 3.8TT motor is FPC and its fantastic. It however, was designed for boost, the 5.2 was not. Some of the comments made have included: The GT350 does not really have piston rings designed for boost, it has lightweight internals not really designed for boost, and the compression ratio will make things tricky (sure, you can bleed off some compression with VVT, but that takes careful tuning and like i said, makes things tricky).
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cam phasers are amazing and do a hell of a job with the stock cams and fi. it has been proven time and time again. btw the coyote is a bad ass n/a motor and it loves boost the fact is that this motor is more of a coyote than anything else should be just as boost happy as a coyote.. it has all the perfect ingredients for boost. amazing heads just like the coyote amazing bottom end to stay together at 8k rpm just like the boss 302 roadrunner which is a damn coyote. the same ecu. i dont know what could be the issue. all you need it to size the right turbo or blower to it and good to go. this motor is going to make sick power at low boost. 800whp at 8psi on good gas is probably a realistic goal.
Exactly. If an angine is making 500whp NA, what do you think it will be doubling the atmospheric pressure? Saying too much overlap will make this think run like an n/a motor will low compression is just ridiculous.
Volt, to get to the heart of my "argument", the stock motor makes peak torque at 4750 rpm. It would take a pretty large turbo, large enough to scatter stock internals, to hit peak boost after that. Therefore, moving to a larger hotside that would breath better up top would not have the negative impact as you initially commented on.
As far as the cams not being optimized, no OEM cam is optimized, regardless of aspiration. So, a turbo gt350 only makes 900whp on stock cams instead of 1000, I don't think people will be griping about overlap....
This is coming from someone who built and tuned 500whp, 93 octane 4 cylinders before billet wheels and e85.
Hey! Anyone see the Supercharged Z06 get its ass whooped today on Motor Trend?? I suggest you all check it out.. Pathetic! NA motors are for the real bad asses, turbos are for the bad ass small engines, and superchargers are for pussies! period! GT350 does't need either one. I am a proud owner a cmmed NA 600HP C6 Z06 and a former proud owner of a NA 5.0.. I have personally embarrassed some fruitcake GT500 owner in a simple cammed SRT8 Chrysler 300, who thought he was the king.. It felt great!!! Just another simpleton running a GT500 with a 285 street tire bragging about how he beats anything and everything he encounters.. needless to say, he just made a U turn and never spoke to me again.. Not that I'm hot shit, or that the GT500 is a bad car, but just learning from experience that most people who have that weird fetish with supercharged cars are simply simple.. time to get past that my fellow Mustang enthusiasts. I get the brilliant NA cars, I get the small lightweight Turbochaged engines making massive power, I get the 900hp hybrids, but I will never get the huge V8 engines assisted by crappy inefficient parasitic heavy superchargers that cant seem to make the power on their own.. just my $.02...
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I feel i covered your cam phaser comments pretty thoroughly ^^. Now, what what typically breaks on a boosted Coyote when it lets go? Ringlands, correct (i've personally never had a boosted coyote, but i believe that's typically the case)? What do you think the first thing to let go on this engine will be? I don't know any more than you or anyone else at this point, but if i had to guess, it would be those even less boost friendly ringlands. Also, an NA bottom end staying together at 8000 rpms is nowhere near the same as an FI rotating assembly staying together at 8k rpms.
1. This is the second time you have missed the analogy. Nowhere did i say the GT350 will not make power, nor have i ever commented on its power making ability. Ok, are we 100% clear on that now? I admitted my initial comment i was trying to make was confusing, and felt i did a pretty good job of clarifying what i meant, but apparently its still not making sense, so i'll try to switch methods of explanation here. Trying to boost the GT350 would be like trying to eat cereal with a fork? Trying to wipe your ass with a Popsicle stick? Trying to pay for a steak dinner in pennies? Trying to comb your hair with a garden rake? Basically, in my mind, i was comparing trying to boost this motor to how ridiculous it would be to do any of the above things ... OR attempt to run a low compression, low overlap motor Na. Clear now?
2. I have no idea what you're getting at here? My initial comment was that you cant have your cake and eat it too, as a turbo guy you should know this. Yes, we can do great things for spool with VVT, but you really just have small turbos that do well down low and kind of run out of steam up top, or you have larger turbos that are a bit of a dog until you get them going and then they make gobs of power up top. So, like i said, that make specing a turbo for a motor like this tricky. If you pick the smaller turbo option for good spool and transient response down low but run out of steam up top, you kind of miss out on whats so good about this motor. On the other hand, if you pick a big turbo that utilizes this motors ability to rev, you likely end up with something that is a bit of a dog around town and low rpms.
3. Again, never once mentioned its ability to make power.
4 I've been in the turbo game for a long time as well, and either you and i simply fail to understand what the other is saying, or just dont exactly see eye to eye on a few things.
Having read through a lot of this thread, there is a group of people that need to understand 2 things.
They are right that the voodoo can be boosted. Yes. They are right. It's also possible to boost a goped or nascar engine.
They are wrong in assuming it will hold together, be all that optimal, or survive the intended track day driving characteristics that the engine is designed to sustain na.
Can someone take a voodoo and redesign it for boost and have it live long and healthy? Yes. Will it take a different approach than a cpc 6500rpm engine? Yes. Is it going to be that hard to do so? No, if they know what to address.
It's a simple check list. You would just need to add strength, efficiency, complimentary design and durability step by step from:
-ring lands
-wrist pins
-stroke and rod ratio may be high for the stock rods tensil strength
-hopefully the crank isn't to brittle, it is drilled of course, few have mentioned this. 429tq and 900wtq are completely different forces to mitigate
-piston tops/design/skirt
-cam profile
-tuning
-fuel delivery, which few have addressed but plan on id2000's to supply 1000whp at 8000rpm, I have no math's for this but someone will. I'm probably way off but no shits given, it'll take more fuel than usual IMO.
-the boob factor. If you like boobs, are you really going to spend that much time on a project that may end up failing? Why not go enjoy your girls or wife's boobs? While you're at it you could even jump in the sack with her, or even lay back on a couch with her. You could even do it in the shower, or the car if she's flexible and you're not very fat.
People built pyramids by hand with 20 ton stones. Yes, people could build a boosted voodoo. People have been to the moon.
They are right that the voodoo can be boosted. Yes. They are right. It's also possible to boost a goped or nascar engine.
They are wrong in assuming it will hold together, be all that optimal, or survive the intended track day driving characteristics that the engine is designed to sustain na.
Can someone take a voodoo and redesign it for boost and have it live long and healthy? Yes. Will it take a different approach than a cpc 6500rpm engine? Yes. Is it going to be that hard to do so? No, if they know what to address.
It's a simple check list. You would just need to add strength, efficiency, complimentary design and durability step by step from:
-ring lands
-wrist pins
-stroke and rod ratio may be high for the stock rods tensil strength
-hopefully the crank isn't to brittle, it is drilled of course, few have mentioned this. 429tq and 900wtq are completely different forces to mitigate
-piston tops/design/skirt
-cam profile
-tuning
-fuel delivery, which few have addressed but plan on id2000's to supply 1000whp at 8000rpm, I have no math's for this but someone will. I'm probably way off but no shits given, it'll take more fuel than usual IMO.
-the boob factor. If you like boobs, are you really going to spend that much time on a project that may end up failing? Why not go enjoy your girls or wife's boobs? While you're at it you could even jump in the sack with her, or even lay back on a couch with her. You could even do it in the shower, or the car if she's flexible and you're not very fat.
People built pyramids by hand with 20 ton stones. Yes, people could build a boosted voodoo. People have been to the moon.
You need the same amount of fuel to make 1000hp at 4000 rpm or 15000rpm on a 4 cylinder v6 v8 v10 or v12. The ringlands on the boss 302 are just fine with boost. The car won't be able to track ofcourae. Mainly because there won't be enough cooling but I am sure that who ever boosts this motor won't take it to a road coarse. I think that people are looking at this engine as an incredible complex and untouchable mystical creature. It's just a coyote with a flat plane crank. Piston speeds are not much different than the coyote or road runner.
You need larger injectors to control fuel at higher RPM versus the same power at lower RPM. The injectors have to be able to deliver adequate fuel in a smaller timespan. I think that's what was being referenced.
The FPC with this high of displacement will likely present issues due to vibrations from a supercharger. Turbos shouldn't cause that issue as far as I can tell. Vibrations are going to be one area that we're just not going to know about until people start changing things. Ford apparently spent a LOT of time making sure that vibrations were down on this motor though. It wasn't too terribly easy from what I've read either.
Now, as far as piston speeds and rod length, I think you're overlooking a big part of the potential issue saying that this is "just a Coyote with a FPC". I basically agree with you in that description, but using a FPC completely changes things. You're comparing a FPC V8 that's pushing the limits of maximum functioning size to a CPC V8 that could easily go to almost double the displacement without any hat tricks. Piston speeds, and pressures acting on them at those speeds, are going to be apples to oranges with FPC and CPC V8s.
It's already been said a billion times that much of the factory hardware isn't going to be boost friendly, but to reiterate my biggest personal concerns:
Light weight rotating assembly including the crank itself (light weight meaning materials have been removed to make them lighter)
Low tension piston rings (I really don't get why this alone doesn't make people think twice about FI on this motor)
Hollow intake and sodium filled exhaust valves (not always a problem, but can definitely be with bigger FI power numbers)
Transmission built for high RPM NA power, smooth shifting, and light weight. It's not built for huge torque figures, so that may or may not be a bad thing (something besides the motor to think about)
You could custom build the engine if big FI numbers are what you want. At that point, it just seems silly to buy this particular car when you could make more safe power with a much cheaper one, and with less work.
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