Coyote vs ls motor's

[Lt. ZO6]

If its all in the motor then why do the GM trucks not do any better than other brand trucks. My best friend had a Silverado with a 5.3 and it got worse mileage than his built cutlass. Same thing with a friend at work he tows his 02 z28 with his dads 1500 silverado and it gets worse mileage than my f-250 5.4 motor towing my Cobra and that truck has a 6.0. He's just like you guys thinks an LS motor is better than everything and nothing compares. He bragged about the gas mileage in his camaro when it was stock and when we compared mileage in the trucks he realized that there was more to mileage than just motors. Comparing a light weight aerodynamic vehicle like a corvette I would say good mileage is acheivable but its not all because of the motor now be honest and tell how many rpms does your vette turn at highway speed.

You inferred that LS motors won't get 28+ to the gallon. I shared my story which indicates otherwise. LS motors can and have gotten good gas mileage. Not just with the vette either. GTO's, Camaros, etc. also get good mileage. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is fact backed up with personal and published experience.

I have not bashed Mustangs or any Ford for that matter. You seem hell-bent on bashing Chevy's though.

 

[Cobra 6245]

You inferred that LS motors won't get 28+ to the gallon. I shared my story which indicates otherwise. LS motors can and have gotten good gas mileage. Not just with the vette either. GTO's, Camaros, etc. also get good mileage. It doesn't matter if you believe it or not. It is fact backed up with personal and published experience.

I have not bashed Mustangs or any Ford for that matter. You seem hell-bent on bashing Chevy's though.

I'm on a Ford website if I gave a shit about bashing Chevys I would go somewhere and do that. I have twice as many friends into cars that like Chevys so I'm just used to hearing the same stuff over and over. As far as mileage goes any v8 gets better mileage than they used to and some do very well its just many LS lovers have a mentality that every has to live up to the standard of the almighty LS motor and often make ridiculous claims about mileage. I know vettes do good but then again its light, aerodynamic and has high gear ratio and thats the secret formula.

 

[9secondko]

Listen ass, Ford was lucky they hired Alan Mullay years ago to start trimming the fat or else they would be in the same boat with GM and Chrysler. I dont care for most of GMs cars or trucks but I appreciate a good engine design like anybody else. Just because you are pissed that Ford screwed you in 1996 with a mod motor that way underperformed the competition doesnt give you the right to be a dick. I would take a Lsx over your pos 4 valve any day of the week and at least I dont have to make excuses for the way my car performs. Now go be a ricer and rant and rave about the power and how efficient your smaller motor is.

Uh... can someone say "TROLL!"

 

[Lt. ZO6]

I'm on a Ford website if I gave a shit about bashing Chevys I would go somewhere and do that. I have twice as many friends into cars that like Chevys so I'm just used to hearing the same stuff over and over. As far as mileage goes any v8 gets better mileage than they used to and some do very well its just many LS lovers have a mentality that every has to live up to the standard of the almighty LS motor and often make ridiculous claims about mileage. I know vettes do good but then again its light, aerodynamic and has high gear ratio and thats the secret formula.

Then maybe you should think twice before posting stuff like this...

Also what Ls motor gets 28 MPGs?

You end up getting real answers you don't like.

By the way, again I state that I have not bashed Ford's or Mustang's in any way. Now if you want our "relationship" to go down this road, then I can play with you...

 

[9secondko]

Kind of amazed at how insecure these LS lovers are that they have to come to a Ford centric site just to troll.

I don't ever feel the need to do so at an LS site.

Basically, both are good motors, but the LS needs the cubes. bottom line. nothing wrong with that, it's just a different way to gain the same power.

Ford goes the high tech route. chevy does it the low tech way.

if ford wanted to build a Frankenstein DOHC 7 liter, the LS guys would poop in their pants. but that most likely won't happen. instead we geet a 5 liter that will still make the LS guys poop in their pants. sure, the races will be close, but a great many Camaro owners are going to be quickly disillusioned when they actually race the new mustangs.

i actually really like the new Camaro and was looking to buy one until I test drove a 2003 Cobra. That was the end. I was bit. HAD to have it. never looked back. I have have had fun beating Camaro SS's left and right in Texas. a neighbor with a nice purple Firehawk went down VERY easily. Raced one Shelby - easy win. Raced a coworkers GTO - easy win. Moved to CA, and met hard reality with a yellow ZR1 on the 8 FWY in San Diego, but that was expected. Had fun making a GTR owner mad and overall just felt like I was driving a supercar. My dad is a Chevy guy and he even has new respect for Ford engines.

The Mustang is in it to win it. and so is Ford.

Personally, I just think the chevy fanboys are in a tizzy and all insecure because that can't take a 400 C.I. engine against a 281 anymore. Ford is adding the beef and they can't take it. too bad. things change. Swallow your pride and deal. this whole competition thing is supposed to be fun. don't get all hurt.

 

[scn]

You Gm nutswingers are still here pleading your case about the Lsx that was touched by god, Well here is a news flash for ya, You are on a Ford based site and We don't give a shit:loser: We all know how capable the lsx motors are and the power potential but we could care less about you trying to convice us that the LS motors were gods creation. Thank you now GTFO and go to ls1tech

There you go with your stupid fanboy response. Sad. Last time I checked, this site was a great resource for ALL petrol heads.

Wasn't this a ford site last time I checked? I am on SVTPERFORMANCE right? Well why are you people proving how arrogant you GM owners are?

I guess GM got the hint of putting a s/c on one of their V8's was because they saw the nightmare their cars had to deal with from cobra's!

On a serious note can't we just get along and agree on how gay hondas are? American muscle should stick together.

Yeah, I thought this was a thread about how one motor would compare against another motor when it comes to mods, not mine is better and yours is s*^t. Both engines are quite respectable in my book. Calling the other one junk just shows a sad understanding and respect for the other.

Kind of amazed at how insecure these LS lovers are that they have to come to a Ford centric site just to troll.

I don't ever feel the need to do so at an LS site.

Basically, both are good motors, but the LS needs the cubes. bottom line. nothing wrong with that, it's just a different way to gain the same power.

Ford goes the high tech route. chevy does it the low tech way.

if ford wanted to build a Frankenstein DOHC 7 liter, the LS guys would poop in their pants. but that most likely won't happen. instead we geet a 5 liter that will still make the LS guys poop in their pants. sure, the races will be close, but a great many Camaro owners are going to be quickly disillusioned when they actually race the new mustangs.

i actually really like the new Camaro and was looking to buy one until I test drove a 2003 Cobra. That was the end. I was bit. HAD to have it. never looked back. I have have had fun beating Camaro SS's left and right in Texas. a neighbor with a nice purple Firehawk went down VERY easily. Raced one Shelby - easy win. Raced a coworkers GTO - easy win. Moved to CA, and met hard reality with a yellow ZR1 on the 8 FWY in San Diego, but that was expected. Had fun making a GTR owner mad and overall just felt like I was driving a supercar. My dad is a Chevy guy and he even has new respect for Ford engines.

The Mustang is in it to win it. and so is Ford.

Personally, I just think the chevy fanboys are in a tizzy and all insecure because that can't take a 400 C.I. engine against a 281 anymore. Ford is adding the beef and they can't take it. too bad. things change. Swallow your pride and deal. this whole competition thing is supposed to be fun. don't get all hurt.

Go anywhere where mechanics or engineers look seriously at engines and try to tell them that the LS3 or LS9 are "low tech" and you will be laughed out of the room.
About Ford bringing the heat and GM being scared? Are you serious? Design teams on both sides love the othere uping the ante. Keeps them pushing the envelope. This is great for us car enthusiasts.

And just to put this on the record, the c7 corvette (and by logic, the camaro in later years) will use a 5.0L engine as a base. (5.5L if they are really feeling froggy) And yes, it will be making considerably more power than 420hp.

 

[Butters916]

Kind of amazed at how insecure these LS lovers are that they have to come to a Ford centric site just to troll.

I don't ever feel the need to do so at an LS site.

Basically, both are good motors, but the LS needs the cubes. bottom line. nothing wrong with that, it's just a different way to gain the same power.

Ford goes the high tech route. chevy does it the low tech way.

if ford wanted to build a Frankenstein DOHC 7 liter, the LS guys would poop in their pants. but that most likely won't happen. instead we geet a 5 liter that will still make the LS guys poop in their pants. sure, the races will be close, but a great many Camaro owners are going to be quickly disillusioned when they actually race the new mustangs.

i actually really like the new Camaro and was looking to buy one until I test drove a 2003 Cobra. That was the end. I was bit. HAD to have it. never looked back. I have have had fun beating Camaro SS's left and right in Texas. a neighbor with a nice purple Firehawk went down VERY easily. Raced one Shelby - easy win. Raced a coworkers GTO - easy win. Moved to CA, and met hard reality with a yellow ZR1 on the 8 FWY in San Diego, but that was expected. Had fun making a GTR owner mad and overall just felt like I was driving a supercar. My dad is a Chevy guy and he even has new respect for Ford engines.

The Mustang is in it to win it. and so is Ford.

Personally, I just think the chevy fanboys are in a tizzy and all insecure because that can't take a 400 C.I. engine against a 281 anymore. Ford is adding the beef and they can't take it. too bad. things change. Swallow your pride and deal. this whole competition thing is supposed to be fun. don't get all hurt.

Dont worry, we chevy boys arent scared of your new 302 and the high tech wonder that it is. You have your school of thought and we have ours. I dont lurk on here to find out what the ford camp is up too. Like I said in a earlier post, I was tired of rooting for the underdog and realized it was time for change. The competition is fun, works out better for everybody and nobody is hurt by discussing the pros and cons of both motors.

 

[04TorchedSVT]

Not comparing cars I was comparing motors. GM had a 5.0 in the 69 z28 camaro that made over 400 hp is that a more fair comparison. :shrug: :rolling:

Where in the hell are you getting 400hp chevy 302 in 69 Z/28 production car??? Please I beg you to show me one article or magazine or sticker that rates that motor at that much horsepower. Those motors were rated a 295 or 305hp not 400 Mr. nut swingger. I read an article awhile back and it did an engine dyno of a boss 302 and chevy 302. With a 650 holley,dyno stand headers and and electric water pump chevy's 302 cranked out around 350ish horsepower and the boss made only a few more ponies with the same carb and headers with an electric water pump. So take you nut hugging self back to the cave you crawled out of.

 

[Formula51]

uh... 412 and 426 HP is "close." And who knows yet if Ford is underrating the motor. they did massively with the Cobra and they do a little with the Shelby's. I;m not saying they are, but wouldn't be surprised.

If you were talking about factory form, then yes, the power is close. The 5.0L is still far behind in terms of torque and torque curve though.

Wow. i am surpirsed at the nonsensical logic here. You talk about how the LS CAN MAKE as much power at the wheels as the 5.0 at the flywheel. Well, gee, that can't be too hard. No doubt a 5.0 CAN MAKE as much power at the wheels as it does factory from the flywheel too.

You misunderstood me. Many people are expecting the 5.0L to be able to make around 500hp or 425rwhp NA (100hp per liter, Ferrari holds the record by the way with 125hp per liter in the new 458 Italia). It is all speculation at this point and we will have to see.

All I was saying is that the LS3 has proven potential to make 500rwhp NA with a cam, heads, and bolt-on's. Thus, I think the 5.0L lack of displacement will prevent it from competing with the LS3 when the mods begin. We will see.

and don't bring "gears' into a topic on modding motors. this is engine, not "gears." Any care will go faster with gears, so its a wash there. This is about the motors.

And we will see how the LS stacks up against the new tech 5.0 when its out stock for stock. And when performance upgrades come out for it, we will see what this comparo looks like.

I only brought up rear gears because you said it wasn't "cheap to make a Camaro fast". Rear gearing is the biggest downfall of the Camaro (other than weight) and now that gear sets are becoming available it will be pretty cheap to make a Camaro fast.

 

[ON D BIT]

You misunderstood me. Many people are expecting the 5.0L to be able to make around 500hp or 425rwhp NA (100hp per liter, Ferrari holds the record by the way with 125hp per liter in the new 458 Italia). It is all speculation at this point and we will have to see.

What record, oem or aftermarket build? You talk about an aftermarket engine build then you state oem records, just curious as to why?

Al has built a few dohc 5.5 I believe one was aproaching 600rwhp which would be close to 125hp/liter. I do know that andy 5.5 put down 550rwhp. Point being, would one be able to do that with the new dohc 5.0? 500rwhp out of the new 5.0 in an engine build?

 

[Formula51]

The "old tech" pushrod engine comments really get old. I don't think its because those saying it are stupid, but just ignorant.

The overhead cam engine was invented by Wilkinson Motor Car Company in 1898. It is every bit as "old" as pushrod engine technology.

In the end, all that matters are the results: power, gas mileage, emissions, and reliability. You could throw in engine noise, weight, packaging size, ease of maintenance, cost to repair, etc. This is afterall, where all the debates stem from.

 

[Formula51]

What record, oem or aftermarket build? You talk about an aftermarket engine build then you state oem records, just curious as to why?

Al has built a few dohc 5.5 I believe one was aproaching 600rwhp which would be close to 125hp/liter. I do know that andy 5.5 put down 550rwhp. Point being, would one be able to do that with the new dohc 5.0? 500rwhp out of the new 5.0 in an engine build?

Oh, sorry. I simply do not see the common engine build (heads, cam(s), bolt-ons) touching Ferrari's 125hp per liter as the 5.0L does not have the same internal engine friction reduction, bore/stroke ratio, etc.

I think a full tilt build could possibly get there, but that was not my point. I should have been more clear.

 

[Formula51]

I was refering to the five speed in a GT Mustang because someone else was refering to fuel economy between Mustangs and Camaros.

That was me, I did that.

The press releases say the 2011 GT manual will get the same gas mileage as the 2010 GT manual. The 2011 GT has a 6 speed transmission.

The 2010 Camaro SS gets that same gas mileage (16/24) even though it makes more horsepower/torque, has larger/wider/heavier wheels and tires, larger and heavier brakes, and weighs 250-300lbs. more overall than the Mustang.

Gearing slightly favors the Camaro in terms of gas mileage as 6th gear looks like this:

Camaro: 3.45 x 0.57 = 1.97
Mustang: 3.31 x 0.65 = 2.15

Drag coefficients are basically identical:

Camaro: 0.35
Mustang: ~0.35 (all I can find is 0.38 for the 07-09 GT500 and a Ford quote that drag was reduced by 7% on the GT for 2011) Can anyone find an actual number for the 2010?

Thus, in my opinion, Ford's V8 gas mileage is behind that of the LSX engines. We can't be certain unless we ran the engines on a dyno or put them in identical cars and ran them on the same stretch of road. Power vs. gas mileage is how I judge efficiency. I don't care if you use a turbo, supercharger, SOHC, DOHC, pushrods, horizontal cylinders, etc. How much power do you make and how much gas does it take to make it. Unfortunately, this is a hard thing to accurately compare as no two cars are exactly alike.

 

[S8ER01Z]

There you go with your stupid fanboy response. Sad. Last time I checked, this site was a great resource for ALL petrol heads.

That's why I am here. :beer:

Yeah, I thought this was a thread about how one motor would compare against another motor when it comes to mods, not mine is better and yours is s*^t. Both engines are quite respectable in my book. Calling the other one junk just shows a sad understanding and respect for the other.

Once again. :beer: I'm excited about the new 5.0L OHC engine... I know a lot of ignorant GM owners that are crying foul and the thing hasn't even been released yet. :nonono: Is it that hard to shed the bias blinders and take a look around once in a while?

 

[S8ER01Z]

Drag coefficients are basically identical:

Camaro: 0.35
Mustang: ~0.35 (all I can find is 0.38 for the 07-09 GT500 and a Ford quote that drag was reduced by 7% on the GT for 2011) Can anyone find an actual number for the 2010?

I dug for a long time... the GT500 is worse than the GT (of the same year) so I guessed .37 and then took 7% off that. Probably not accurate but until someone actually publishes the real number it's better than nothing. It's just as hard to find the coefficient for an LS1 Camaro... they claim they never tested it though so that's better than claiming '7% better' and never saying the actual number I guess.


EDIT: Oh and don't forget the frontal area.... the drag coefficient is just one half of the total picture.

 

[Formula51]

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the frontal area.... the drag coefficient is just one half of the total picture.

Absolutely, and thus you see how hard this gets. All it can do is give you a "feel" for efficiency. And we didn't even get into tire compound differences (although this benefits the Mustang). Unless we look at a Brembo brake optioned car or Track Pack car, they have the same tire compound as the Camaro SS (Pirelli PZero's).

I still havent found torsional stiffness for the 4th Gen F-body chassis, the 2010 Camaro is 25 Hertz and the C5 Vette was 24 Hertz. If you happen to find that, let me know. This came from an argument on the Camaro forum where everyone was trying to convince themselves the new Camaro was so heavy because it was so much stiffer inorder to handle the added power. Ehh, maybe, but I would like to see some numbers. The C5 Vette handled about the same power at only 24 Hertz pretty well I thought.;-)

 

[czwalga00gt]

Haha, i love the morons saying 'old tech pushrods'.


Those old tech pushrods have been kicking fords ass for the last 15 years. HP, TQ, MPG, Weight, Footprint.

 

[mustangmanjeff]

Camaro hasn't had 400 hp until now have you been living in a cave? :lol: Ever heard of the muscle car era of the 60's, with things such as the Yenko camaro, camaro ss, and the z28 which had a 5.0 in it even had over 400 hp and that was 40+ years ago. :lol1: Also you have to remember the ls motor is not a Chevy motor it's a GM motor. And GM put the ls6 and Ls2 motors in a lot of vehicles such as the ssr, gto, trailblazer, corvette, and cadillac.

I meant as in todays cars, not muscle cars, every 1 had a 400hp car in the 60s , I meant camaro of the mid 70's until 2009 the camaro lt1,lt4,ls1 all had 350hp or less and no shit chevy puts the ls in everything that has nothing to do with my post, what my post states is facts all the chevy fan boys are pissed, they can deal with it, the coyote makes more power then 5.7 hemis,lt1 camaros, ls1 camaros, and same horsepower as ls6 motor and similar horsepower to a ls3, only the 7.0 liter and zr1 make more horsepower, pretty impressive if you ask me, esp when ford is doing it n/a 5.0 liters and chevy and the hemi is 5.7 and 6.0 liters, it takes chevys 7.0 liter to outpower it hmm wow 2.0 liters larger and makes more power no way!:burn: and were talking a LOW LOW BASE MODELV8 CAR A MUSTANG GT! not a saleen or cobra or shelby, its a mustang gt making camaro ss ,corvette, srt8 etc horsepower.

 

[mebetter]

Where in the hell are you getting 400hp chevy 302 in 69 Z/28 production car??? Please I beg you to show me one article or magazine or sticker that rates that motor at that much horsepower. Those motors were rated a 295 or 305hp not 400 Mr. nut swingger. I read an article awhile back and it did an engine dyno of a boss 302 and chevy 302. With a 650 holley,dyno stand headers and and electric water pump chevy's 302 cranked out around 350ish horsepower and the boss made only a few more ponies with the same carb and headers with an electric water pump. So take you nut hugging self back to the cave you crawled out of.

:whine: I found you 4 articles :read:
The Z/28

1969 Camaro Z28 - Camaro Performers Magazine

1969 camaro for sale,1969 camaro z28,1969 chevrolet camaro,pic

1969 Chevy Camaro Z28 | Sports Cars Database

And to the one who said ls motors don't get 28+ mpg on the highway.
Even my gto gets 28 mph on the highway. The ls1 f-bodys do as well.
Official 2005 GTO Pricing and Gas Milage! - GM Inside News Forum

 

[mebetter]

I meant as in todays cars, not muscle cars, every 1 had a 400hp car in the 60s , I meant camaro of the mid 70's until 2009 the camaro lt1,lt4,ls1 all had 350hp or less and no shit chevy puts the ls in everything that has nothing to do with my post, what my post states is facts all the chevy fan boys are pissed, they can deal with it, the coyote makes more power then 5.7 hemis,lt1 camaros, ls1 camaros, and same horsepower as ls6 motor and similar horsepower to a ls3, only the 7.0 liter and zr1 make more horsepower, pretty impressive if you ask me, esp when ford is doing it n/a 5.0 liters and chevy and the hemi is 5.7 and 6.0 liters, it takes chevys 7.0 liter to outpower it hmm wow 2.0 liters larger and makes more power no way!:burn: and were talking a LOW LOW BASE MODELV8 CAR A MUSTANG GT! not a saleen or cobra or shelby, its a mustang gt making camaro ss ,corvette, srt8 etc horsepower.

That's great Ford has a small block motor finally over 400 hp n/a it only took Ford 40 years to do it. After every other auto manufacturer has already been there done that, you guys are just the last ones to the party. Sad thing is this mustang weighs over 3600 lbs and is still only making around 400 hp. Quote me on this "The 2011 mustang gt is not going to blow away the competition it will run the same quarter times as ls2 gto's, 03-04 cobras, trans ams, and camaros."