My 2014 GT500 Convertible was ordered with every available option, with the MSRP totaling $69,545.
GT350/R Price Drop? Time to Buy?
- Thread starter s1ten
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My 2014 GT500 Convertible was ordered with every available option, with the MSRP totaling $69,545.
I was supporting your post. Ok?
And how many of those did Ford sell? I never said they couldn't sell cars above $70k, I said they won't sell "A LOT" of cars at that elevated price. Now they're in the range of a ZO6 and/or Grand Sport and within striking distance of a lot of foreign sports cars.
Truth be told, I was just spit balling. I don't plan on selling my car, regardless of what the 500 has to offer.
I'll close by restating what I already pointed out.
1) If the 500 is a marked improvement, I do NOT feel like Ford will be able to offer that for less than what the current 350 trims are priced at. So if the new 500 is some sort of 350 on roids, it still won't hurt the value of the 350s because there will be a price/value gap between the two.
2) If Ford's bean counters make the development team take an appetite suppressant, the 500 will continue to be a muscle car and again, that will serve to maintain the differentiation between the 500 and the 350.
3) IF however, Ford decides they want a real shot at competing with the ZL1, now they have to feature a car with more power than the 350R, similar handling as the 350R but less than $70k. THAT would be obviously the death of the 350. IF they do that, yes, the 350R value will plummet and the 350 will get kicked in the crotch as well. But again, easier said than done. I don't know how they get the weight savings off a car that's already going to be piggish with all that's added for a factory FI system and also incorporate all the fancy/expensive features of the 350 series (lighter trans, better wheels, better brakes, active exhaust, trans cooler, diff coolers, etc, etc). Keeping all the 350 goodies and adding a blower is going to be TOUGH to do without the price going well over what the current 350 pricing is and again, that creates a $/value gap which protects our value.
I like that you contribute to this forum, and you actually post fairly well thought out information.
But I feel like I'm talking to a wall.
As far as how many $70k convertibles Ford sold...EVERY SINGLE ONE THEY PRODUCED. As far as comparing to the Z06 price-wise, yes a LOADED GT500 will be very comparable to a BASE Z06. And as far as comparing it to the Grand Sport, I expect them to be very competitive as far as performance numbers go.
1.) FORD IS NOT GOING TO OFFER THE GT500 FOR LESS THAN THE GT350. Period. End of story. No discussion. IT WON'T HAPPEN.
2.) The cars that are selling the best right now and demanding the most attention are track oriented vehicles. Ford will create the GT500 with that in mind and aim to take out the ZL1, just like the GT PP Stage 2 was created to take on the 1LE.
3.) Ford does NOT need to create the GT500 to be under $70k. The base model will be $65-70k and you'll be able to build one up close to or equal to $80k.
I don't mean any of this in disrespect, so please don't take it that way. At the end of the day, Ford sells their performance division better than GM or Chrysler. Have you ever seen a Ford Performance/SVT product sell for 20% off MSRP? No. GM and Chrysler do. Ford Performance/SVT vehicles hold their value better than GM or Chrysler performance vehicles.
I realize that and it's my point. We're seeing MORE of that where they develop a "special" tire with one of the manufacturers that costs a bloody fortune. Good for the tire company who gets single source revenue from people who want to continue using OEM at their first tire change. Good for Ford because it's a selling point (and they can negotiate a reduced cost on the tires from the manufacturer who stands to make money on the back end).
We're saying the same thing. My points were to respond to people who are concerned that the value of the 350 is about to go south when the 500s come out.
You're points are simply proving my overall point, there's little to worry about.
The 350 will drop. Not necessarily due to the comparison between the 350 and the 500, but due to the sheer amount of people trading/selling their GT350s to get in to the GT500. Happens every time there is a new model out.
The GT350s were odd anyways, I bet there were more pre-owned GT350s on the market within 6 months of their first ownership, than any Ford performance vehicle in the last decade. A lot of these have traded hands already, and that number will grow dramatically when the GT500 is announced.
Supply will increase rapidly, while demand will hold constant or decrease; resulting in lower prices.
So what, if it's within striking distance of Z06/GS/foreign sports cars, if the performance is there?? Ford claims the GT350R can run door to door with the 991.1 GT3 around a track. The GT3 has a $140K base price, and you'll never find one for that price. Also, $60K - $70K foreign sports cars can come even remotely close to touching GT350R performance? I honestly can't think of any.
1) As already pointed out, the GT500 is not going to be priced below the GT350. Why would Ford price its premiere Mustang below a lesser model?
2) The days of straight line focused cars at Ford (and GM) are over. Dodge is doing it because they literally have nothing to lose by offering straight line cars.
3) Ford has zero reason or incentive to price a balls-out GT500 less than $70K. It's not young whipper-snappers who are going to be buying them. It'll be older, more established people with deeper than average pockets. Not to mention, the base price of the GT350R is ~$60K. The base for a ZL1 is ~$62.5K. The ZL1 can barely (and in some instances doesn't) outperform the GT350R in anything other than a straight line. The ZL1 1LE has a $70K base price. Ford is no doubt looking to outgun the 1LE; probably with a base GT500. So, again, what reason or incentive does Ford have to price the GT500 below $70K? As much tech and performance that's expected of it, it'll probably start above $70K and touch $80K optioned out, and they'll sell every last one of them.
Are you guys actually reading what I write? I'm not disagreeing with you.
The entire thread has been me addressing why I don't think there's going to be a significant drop in the value of the 350's. You're proving my point. I don't think Ford is going to be able to offer a car that's better than the 350 for a comparable price as the current trims of the 350. So even if the 500 is far superior, there's going to be a price gap that protects the value of the 350.
And you guys keep mischaracterizing what I've said. I've never claimed Ford couldn't sell cars above a certain price point. Hell, they could build a $130k mustang and sell it depending on how tricked it is....my point is that it's not their wheelhouse in terms of revenue and effort.
Will they sell every 350R? Surely. Will they make as much money as selling 100 times as many GT Premium level III upgrades? No. Not even close. I don't care what their margins are.
Wal Mart makes BILLIONS off 3% margin, they just move an assload of product. There are yacht manufacturers that make healthy profits selling one or two boats every several years. And then there's businesses scattered all along that spectrum.
My point is, once Ford starts getting into the Grand Sport/ZO6 pricing, it does affect their bean counting. They're boxed in with premium products above and more common mass products below (on the 500) so there's a sweet spot they're trying to hit.
I did read it, I just disagree and didn't want to argue the point. I might agree with the R, but not the base 350. There will obviously be a few people who dump their 350 onto the market to spend the extra $20k on a 500, but I don't think it's going to tank their value. The 350 is already selling slightly used for low 50s. It doesn't have much further to fall anyway before it's in the realm of the GT Premium with all the bells/whistles. What's far more likely to be impacted is the new and resale values of the R. If the R and the new 500 are even remotely close and the 500 turns out to be everything everyone is hoping, then yes, people will dump their R's onto the market to spend the few grand for a newer/better vehicle. I just don't think people are going to do that in droves when it's a $20k calculus vs, a much smaller gap.
I promise they will. Same thing happened in 2012 when the 2013's were announced.
Hell, how many people dumped their GT350s within a few months and jumped on the Hellcat bandwagon?
In the realm of a new GT Premium? Ok. That's like me saying that the 2016/17 GT350 should be more expensive because the 2013/14 GT500s were selling for low to mid $50ks when the GT350 came out.
Please 'watch' this thread. Here in 6 months, let's revisit it.
Perhaps. Business predictions are always tough, especially with sales and I'm not saying my view is infallible. I just know that the average consumer weighs cost and value.
The examples you cited weren't huge disparities in cost/value. And also were apples/oranges in terms of differentiation. Comparing the 350s and the previous 500s was a bit apples/oranges. One was a muscle car, the other a more focused track car.
I can only speak with real confidence from MY perspective, which is this. If the new 500 comes out and it's a 350R with a blower, and it's $60k or less, I'll dump my 350 onto the market (at a loss) and buy. The calculus works. If it comes out and it's MSRP of $70K with the now anticipated "dealer markup" which puts the real price $5-$10k above that, the numbers don't work as well, and I'm ASSUMING that I'm not alone there. It would have to be REALLY REALLY improved for a $25k-$30k difference for me to jump ship.
I don't feel like I'm way out in left field with that logic. For the R, the numbers are a bit different. That value gap is slightly narrower, but the cost gap is much smaller. I'd think those are going to get dumped quicker AND the dealers are going to have to come off their artificial markups stat.
I bet they trade hands at $10-20k over for the first 8-10 months of production.
I was talking about the R. If the 500 comes out and it's within striking distance of the R prices, the R will sit on lots while people buy the 500 and the dealers will have to abandon their markups.
Oh. I agree with that.
That's where you keep going off the rails. If the performance is proven to be there, what does it matter if it costs as much as a GS/Z06? What rule is there that says Ford has to keep the Mustang in the cheap seats?
I don't think people are going to be dumping their Rs for the next GT500. Regular GT350s, quite possibly. With the R, they'd probably be more apt to add the GT500 to the stable to have a complete set. That's my plan. That red badge means a lot more than you think. From all accounts that I've read and watched, the driving dynamics and characteristics of the R are so different from the standard GT350s that they could be two wholly separate cars. The other factor is the Voodoo engine. It's not going to appear in anything else. Sure, the GT500 might have some form of flat plane crank engine, but it won't be a Voodoo and probably won't rev as high, although it would be nice if it did or even higher. The R is greater than the sum of its parts, afterall. The next GT500 will be like what the 911 Turbo S is to the GT3. The Turbo S performs about the same or better, depending on the track/situation, but they're two different cars with different personalities and different purposes. People in that income bracket don't dump GT3s for Turbo Ss. They add a Turbo S to the garage, if they like it that much.
The typical guy that tracks his car upgrades his wheels/tires. With that out of the way the performance difference between the two really isn't that much. Same engine, same brakes. Different damper tuning and a minor weight difference.
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