GT500 vs. ZL1.

[Ninjak]

Of course another example of Camaro5 LALALALALALALALLA!!!!!!! we will erase anything that contradicts our beloved Camaro !

First it was I would never pay 50k for a mustang ! Then BOOM 50k+ Camaro comes along, its ok.

Second GT500 vs SS is UNFAIR ! Favorable ZL1 vs Boss.....Hmm yeah its ok..its great !

Now we get a UN favorable review and ZOMG ! The magazines are against GM ! They hate us ! They hate our cars ! LOL

Yep just par for the course on C5. Nothing to see there, move along.
Maybe those owners can go to Germany and run their cars on the ring. You know thats the only performance that counts.

 

[Snagged]

I think you are right in that segments are redefined constantly, sometimes in bigger ways than others. The ZL1 does it more so now because it hits the ground running where it didn’t exist before. This is more of a ‘shock’ to the segment than gradual improvement over time. Read any of the ZL1 reviews and you will see this.

Motor Trend:

For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a family sedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time.​

IMO, the ZL1 has done this with overall vehicle engineering, not just engine engineering or adding a lug nut. Look at the underbody of the ZL1 as an example of the attention to detail they paid to aerodynamics - better than the Boss. Look at the 'hero lap' times of this 4200 lb car as a testament to the tuning of the suspension, electronic steering, and PTM. The third generation MR dampers speak for themselves. They started from scratch and took little compromise when it came to performance. The ZL1 is a car that is very comfortable on the street (like it or not, more so than the GT500), capable on the drag strip, and killer on the track. They got everything they could out of the car, more than what people thought was possible given weight and HP. This will have to be the norm going forward for these top performing models because GM has set the standard. Hence, they have redefined the segment.

Moving forward chassis will change and weight will go down, but these principals will have to be applied to the Mustang to remain competitive. Look at what they’ve done for 2013 to compensate other than the engine, they’ve tried to compete with the electronically switched dampers (not even same ballpark as MR), they’ve hyped minor aero changes (gurney flap and fascia) but in reality they are hoping 650 / 200 takes the focus off of the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the ZL1.

Yes, the 650 HP GT500 is impressive and a feat of engineering especially to beat the GG tax, but IMO it hasn’t redefined anything because I don’t think cars will have to always trump this number moving forward with the lighter more advanced chassis and CAFE standards. Cars will get lighter and faster because of other technologies, not just increasing HP. Clearly HP isn’t everything as many here prefer the Z06 to ZR1 or Boss to GT500. Besides all this, the 650 HP number is just a number because we all know most of that will be unusable at the low end with the same stock tires.

As if 200 mph top speed isn’t just a marketing exercise, the ultimate ‘hero lap’? Way more people will track a ZL1 than will reach 200 mph in the GT500. I’d rather the engineering time went to other things than top speed.

The Mustang is what started this whole ballgame.
/thread :banana:

Seriously though, yeah the ZL1 has killer performance but it certainly doesn't have everything going for it. Neither does the GT500. I think there is too much hype going on for the ZL1 and can't wait to see it hit the streets. At the end of the day, and trying to be as unbiased as I possibly can, there would be no question that I would pick the GT500 between it and the ZL1.

Mustang has revolutionized/redefined this segment of cars in many ways in the past and has done so again with the 200 mph, so lets not hump the ZL1's tailpipe too much here. This is just another step forward by BOTH car manufacturers. To undersell the 200 mph is just childish.

EDIT:

Just like Ford did in 2003? And again in 2011? They didn't just redefine the segment, they CREATED the segment. If you think the GT500 running a 2:58 at VIR wasn't a segment redefining moment then you're insane. Is the ZL1 faster now? Of course it is. The GT500 has been a stationary target since 2010. If GM couldn't beat a car that hasn't changed an iota since 2010, and is on a platform that's been in production since 2004, they'd have to be the biggest retards on the planet. The fact that they managed to accomplish this not so amazing feat does not make them geniuses or class redefiners.



Apparently "we all" don't know (i.e. you don't) that with revised gearing and launch control, the 2013 is going to blow the 11/12s away when it comes to getting the power to the ground. The 2013 doesn't pull harder, it pulls longer.



Just like GM is hoping a Nurburgring laptime takes the focus off the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the GT500. Things like the powerplant (especially internals), drag strip times, interior and options availability (real nav, recaros, etc), etc. GM can harp on laptimes all they want but the bottom line is that for serious track duty, a supercharged 4200 pound car is a very POOR choice (as is the GT500, tbh).

You say 200 MPH is meaningless because a lot more people will track the ZL1 than will top end a GT500, but a LOT more people will street and strip race BOTH cars than will track either of them, so by your same logic strip performance is far more important than track performance.

Well now that I see this post I guess I didn't need to add a response (lol).

 

[svtfocus2cobra]

AND, I just received this PM by the Moderator that deleted my 1st post:



Hahahaha what a joke.

Is the ZL1 a being now... a god?

"You readily dismiss many things GM has told us about ZL1 and go on to make assumptions about some of those details you know nothing of, unless you have access to ZL1."

... Are you serious!?:lol:

 

[Devious_Snake]

Is the ZL1 a being now... a god?

"You readily dismiss many things GM has told us about ZL1 and go on to make assumptions about some of those details you know nothing of, unless you have access to ZL1."

... Are you serious!?:lol:

definitely some of the funniest shit ever....i also saw in a thread over there someone paid almost 70K with everything included for that ZL1....

 

[ON D BIT]

I want to see the better than boss levels of handling!:shrug:

 

[Snagged]

You are dilusional saying the zl1 is a game changer, when the camaro itself has always been a carbon copy of the mustang. Chevy is that annoying kid in school waiting to see what your next move in art class is going to be just so he can copy you.(funny how most of the chevy fans used to hate on the 03 cobra because it was supercharged from the factory, but now that chevy is doing it, its ok...double standard much )

Like it or not, the 13 GT500 will be the ponycar that continues to redefine the segment, a 200mph from the factory ponycar has never existed, while great handling ponycars have been around for a while.

Oh any zl1 fanboy shouldnt be claiming victory in a road course against the 13 gt500 when they havent even been tested together yet.

Great points.

I will also add again Camaro5 is a joke. I read some threads on there today and couldn't believe half the stuff that members were typing. They are living on another planet thinking the ZL1 is made by the car gods.

 

[ON D BIT]

I think you are right in that segments are redefined constantly, sometimes in bigger ways than others. The ZL1 does it more so now because it hits the ground running where it didn’t exist before. This is more of a ‘shock’ to the segment than gradual improvement over time. Read any of the ZL1 reviews and you will see this.

Motor Trend:

For 2012, Chevy aims to redefine the ponycar completely in one electronically optimized fell swoop. The 2012 Chevrolet Camaro ZL1 takes the once-simple formula for all-American performance and reworks it into a recipe for a modern cyborg warhorse. Literally leaning on suspension technology originally developed for Cadillacs and Corvettes, the Camaro achieves better-than-Boss levels of handling with the highway ride quality of a CTS-V. The active exhaust system sounds nearly as quiet as a family sedan at part throttle, but opens up its big, angry pipes when you stand on it. Like the ZL1, the 2012 Ford Mustang Boss 302 Laguna Seca does allow for ride quality and handling adjustment, but the big difference is the Camaro is adjusted by a smarter-and-faster-than-you computer -- different performance modes are summoned with an index finger through a console-mounted button -- while the Mustang is dialed in using a screwdriver and your spare time.​

IMO, the ZL1 has done this with overall vehicle engineering, not just engine engineering or adding a lug nut. Look at the underbody of the ZL1 as an example of the attention to detail they paid to aerodynamics - better than the Boss. Look at the 'hero lap' times of this 4200 lb car as a testament to the tuning of the suspension, electronic steering, and PTM. The third generation MR dampers speak for themselves. They started from scratch and took little compromise when it came to performance. The ZL1 is a car that is very comfortable on the street (like it or not, more so than the GT500), capable on the drag strip, and killer on the track. They got everything they could out of the car, more than what people thought was possible given weight and HP. This will have to be the norm going forward for these top performing models because GM has set the standard. Hence, they have redefined the segment.

Moving forward chassis will change and weight will go down, but these principals will have to be applied to the Mustang to remain competitive. Look at what they’ve done for 2013 to compensate other than the engine, they’ve tried to compete with the electronically switched dampers (not even same ballpark as MR), they’ve hyped minor aero changes (gurney flap and fascia) but in reality they are hoping 650 / 200 takes the focus off of the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the ZL1.

Yes, the 650 HP GT500 is impressive and a feat of engineering especially to beat the GG tax, but IMO it hasn’t redefined anything because I don’t think cars will have to always trump this number moving forward with the lighter more advanced chassis and CAFE standards. Cars will get lighter and faster because of other technologies, not just increasing HP....

Wow there is so much to this post I can not get to everything without wasting a ton of time.

You do realize you are quoting MT the mag who once called the ridgeline a truck!

How can you even begin to compare aero? If you do I hope you back up your assumptions with hard data. So where is this windtunnel data you base your conjecture on?

Your not hailing the lap times of a 4200lb car? That fact that its 4200lbs should be enough to stay far away!

Name the parts that are superior to the mustang? Yea name 2!

The mustang has a lighter more advanced chasis? The mustang chasis came out first right?

MR suspension...what is the data for this suspension skidpad and slalom. To my knowledge its putting up numbers eerily similar to the 11 gt500 with a solid rear axle.

 

[Captain Beyond]

Just like Ford did in 2003? And again in 2011? They didn't just redefine the segment, they CREATED the segment. If you think the GT500 running a 2:58 at VIR wasn't a segment redefining moment then you're insane. Is the ZL1 faster now? Of course it is. The GT500 has been a stationary target since 2010. If GM couldn't beat a car that hasn't changed an iota since 2010, and is on a platform that's been in production since 2004, they'd have to be the biggest retards on the planet. The fact that they managed to accomplish this not so amazing feat does not make them geniuses or class redefiners.



Apparently "we all" don't know (i.e. you don't) that with revised gearing and launch control, the 2013 is going to blow the 11/12s away when it comes to getting the power to the ground. The 2013 doesn't pull harder, it pulls longer.



Just like GM is hoping a Nurburgring laptime takes the focus off the other inferior parts of the car as compared to the GT500. Things like the powerplant (especially internals), drag strip times, interior and options availability (real nav, recaros, etc), etc. GM can harp on laptimes all they want but the bottom line is that for serious track duty, a supercharged 4200 pound car is a very POOR choice (as is the GT500, tbh).

You say 200 MPH is meaningless because a lot more people will track the ZL1 than will top end a GT500, but a LOT more people will street and strip race BOTH cars than will track either of them, so by your same logic strip performance is far more important than track performance.

+1 :thumbsup:

I was gonna respond to IOMZL1's post, but you sir took the words right outta my mouth. Excellent post. :beer:

 

[Kewlv8]

IMO, the ZL1 has done this with overall vehicle engineering, not just engine engineering or adding a lug nut. Look at the underbody of the ZL1 as an example of the attention to detail they paid to aerodynamics - better than the Boss. Look at the 'hero lap' times of this 4200 lb car as a testament to the tuning of the suspension, electronic steering, and PTM.
Yes, the 650 HP GT500 is impressive and a feat of engineering especially to beat the GG tax, but IMO it hasn’t redefined anything because I don’t think cars will have to always trump this number moving forward with the lighter more advanced chassis and CAFE standards. Cars will get lighter and faster because of other technologies, not just increasing HP. Clearly HP isn’t everything as many here prefer the Z06 to ZR1 or Boss to GT500. Besides all this, the 650 HP number is just a number because we all know most of that will be unusable at the low end with the same stock tires.

So, the suspension is the reason the 4,100Lb ZL1 with 580HP and craptastic cast pistons is superior to the 3,800Lb GT500 with 650-670 HP, forged internals, plus an oversized blower. Nobody ever upgrades the suspension on these cars. Conversely, the fact that the ZL1 LSA melts down at the same HP level as a stock GT500 with a tune is apparently not a factor since nobody needs more than 500Rwhp on street tires .

Is this how you console each other over on the Camaro5 board? “We are only down 90HP and overweight by 300Lbs. All is well, remain calm, the mag-ride will make up for this and more!”. That crap might fly over on the Camaro5 board, but not on SVT. We will, however, laugh our asses off at your attempts to rationalize and marginalize a monumental deficit. Carry on, if it makes you feel better about your choice. LMMFAO

 

[Chris!]

Shit got real up in this bitch.


I think we should hold off til both cars are out

 

[bumplime]

Camaro5 needs to be a banned word on this forum. It's simply not necessary to discuss any of the piss poor whiners on that forum and the way they handle criticism. Thank God people here have some thicker skin ad can accept that our mightystang has some short comings.
I'll actually give some respect to IOMZL1. At least he isn't running away from the beatings and is attempting to provide viable arguments. You sir should be a Hero to the other forum, at least you appear to have some testicular fortitude unlike your brethren from over there.

Once these two cars face off same day,same tracks someone's going to get raped. Once that's done the excuses are going to be pointless. Of course they'll be thrown around in an attempt to save face but when you've ran your mouth and proclaimed yourself the badass of the neighborhood there is no way to save face. Thankfully I'm confident the Blue Oval won't be in that position.

 

[Captain Beyond]

As if 200 mph top speed isn’t just a marketing exercise, the ultimate ‘hero lap’? Way more people will track a ZL1 than will reach 200 mph in the GT500. I’d rather the engineering time went to other things than top speed.

:lol:

...kinda like ZL1's Ring time. :lol1:

...and way more people will drag race their GT500s/ZL1s than track them. :-D

 

[Captain Beyond]

After I blow the doors off a ZL1 with my 2010 GT500 on the street or drag strip I hope hope he finds comfort in knowing his car is faster on the Ring. Lol
:burnout:

:lol:

 

[jonesd]

I've never once met someone at work or in public that asked me what my car runs at the ring or vir...

I always get the same 2 questions from the average joe:

What's it do 0-60?

How fast is it in the quarter mile?


I still think its funny you zl1 guys buy into the gm marketing that a supercharged 4200lb car is a track car... Please beat the hell out of it all day and report back with your findings.

 

[ON D BIT]

Camaro5 needs to be a banned word on this forum. It's simply not necessary to discuss any of the piss poor whiners on that forum and the way they handle criticism.

Who does that remind you of? Why the people who are working at GM today!:uh oh:

 

[PaulVincent]

"the 650 HP number is just a number because we all know most of that will be unusable at the low end with the same stock tires."
This is the most ridiculous reasoning that can be made. That these cars will be modified is a given. That modifications such as tires will not void the warranty makes it foolish for any owner not to upgrade tires.

 

[ON D BIT]

"the 650 HP number is just a number because we all know most of that will be unusable at the low end with the same stock tires."
This is the most ridiculous reasoning that can be made. That these cars will be modified is a given. That modifications such as tires will not void the warranty makes it foolish for any owner not to upgrade tires.

Which is why they have the new launch control, so it can be usable at the low end....

 

[thePill]

GM and Delphi sold the Magnetic Ride Control to Beijing West Industries in 2009. BWI then created the 3rd Gen MagnaRide and is selling it to who ever wants it. As long as they are an option and don't over heat like the 1st Gen F55's, I guess it wouldn't bother me to see them on the next gen car. I would rather see them stick to a traditional coilover.

GM is now a customer, not the owner of MRC. Audi, Acura and Range Rover now use it since it was sold to a private company. So yes.... The ZL1 was the first Pony car to use Chinese suspension... At least we we have the transmission :-D

It's kinda comical that the GT500 has frightened the ZL1 from the ENTIRE drag racing scene. Road and Track published the 12.9@113mph quarter mile time in their magazine... Not gonna turn any heads poopin' on itself at the strip.

 

[IOMZL1]

As if 200 mph top speed isn’t just a marketing exercise, the ultimate ‘hero lap’? Way more people will track a ZL1 than will reach 200 mph in the GT500. I’d rather the engineering time went to other things than top speed.

Mustang has revolutionized/redefined this segment of cars in many ways in the past and has done so again with the 200 mph, so lets not hump the ZL1's tailpipe too much here. This is just another step forward by BOTH car manufacturers. To undersell the 200 mph is just childish.

:lol:

...kinda like ZL1's Ring time. :lol1:

...and way more people will drag race their GT500s/ZL1s than track them. :-D

I guess you guys didn’t see that I was using the 200mph comment as an example of why road course performance isn’t less important than drag racing. People here seem to say a lot that drag racing is more popular, blah blah. That doesn’t mean it is the ONLY thing that matters. I think 200mph is impressive and important.

Thank you for confirming that just because you don't care about a performance metric and just because it isn’t as widely used as other forms of performance doesn't mean it is any less significant. From here out nobody should have to pull the drag racing is more popular card.

 

[Redzone]

All of this drag racing fanboyism really wears me out.

But are you really surprised? The guys at Camaro5 hang their hat on track numbers & the people here do the same for drag times. Everyone's just playing to their strengths & it's been going on long before the internet even existed.

The only difference is people now can be a lot more confrontational about it now from the safety of their keyboard.