Nurburgring times yet?

[RCM90]

If the ring was carpet bombed tomorrow I could care less.

Woah! Don't take away my entertainment for the weekend..

Seriously though, its not a good track to set standards for because of no set rules on how to properly time a car and the weather changes so frequently it would almost be impossible to replicate the same results unless a shootout was setup between the cars.

Personally I think the GT500 and ZL1 need to be set at a few American courses since that's where they will actually be driven..

 

[TORQJNKY]

A ZL1 probably couldn't pull off a 7.19 two days in a row simply due to the varying track conditions at that place.

You want to use a track to benchmark the cars, pick someplace like Road America where you don't have to worry about what the weather is like ten miles from the start/finish line.

'Ring times are cool and do give bragging rights but you absolutely can not use them as the benchmark for a cars performance.

7:19 is the ZR1 time, not ZL1 time. ZL1 time is 7:41

I disagree with your comment about ring times. That's like saying "You absolutely cannot use 1/4 mile times as the benchmark for a cars performance". Ring times are a performance benchmark for cars purpose built for the road course (ZR1, Z06, ZL1 etc...) and same for quarter mile times regarding the 13 GT500. The ZR1 and Z06 just happen to do both well is great, but they were not purpose built for 1/4 mile racing.

It wouldn't kill me if the 13 GT500 ring time was never released, it wasn't built to circle the ring, it was built to beat down 1320's. I think some people want to know because they are grasping at any performance trait the ZL1 may be better at than the GT500, because to date, the ZL1 is holding a hand full of it's own ass.

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

7:19 is the ZR1 time, not ZL1 time. ZL1 time is 7:41

I disagree with your comment about ring times. That's like saying "You absolutely cannot use 1/4 mile times as the benchmark for a cars performance". Ring times are a performance benchmark for cars purpose built for the road course (ZR1, Z06, ZL1 etc...) and same for quarter mile times regarding the 13 GT500. The ZR1 and Z06 just happen to do both well is great, but they were not purpose built for 1/4 mile racing.

It wouldn't kill me if the 13 GT500 ring time was never released, it wasn't built to circle the ring, it was built to beat down 1320's. I think some people want to know because they are grasping at any performance trait the ZL1 may be better at than the GT500, because to date, the ZL1 is holding a hand full of it's own ass.

please, read this...
Avoidable Contact #17: Cheating Nissan, Bitter Porsche.
that was written by an actual race car driver that also reviews cars. performance benchmark my ass, not when times can vary by at least 10 seconds because of track conditions alone.

 

[TORQJNKY]

please, read this...
Avoidable Contact #17: Cheating Nissan, Bitter Porsche.
that was written by an actual race car driver that also reviews cars. performance benchmark my ass, not when times can vary by at least 10 seconds because of track conditions alone.

So what your saying is 1/4 mile times can't vary because of track conditions?!! :shrug: That's just a stupid argument. DA, track prep, ambient temperature etc etc etc... all effect 1/4 mile times as well as ring times. 8-10 seconds in a 7 minute run or .3 seconds in a 11 second run, same thing.

 

[dtheo]

Here is one of Fords Media Launch Video, this will change your opinions about Fords overall strategy. They wanted a balanced car to match the HP. 8 minute video. At the end, FORD lets the many media members take the car on the ROAD COURSE to see how it feels.............(NOT THE 1/4mile track)

New 2013 Ford Shelby GT500 - Media Launch Video - HD - from www.speedi.tv - YouTube

So don't tell me you don't care about open track times, because Ford does.....

 

[Soon to be SVT]

So what your saying is 1/4 mile times can't vary because of track conditions?!! :shrug: That's just a stupid argument. DA, track prep, ambient temperature etc etc etc... all effect 1/4 mile times as well as ring times. 8-10 seconds in a 7 minute run or .3 seconds in a 11 second run, same thing.

Most people look at trap speed, not ET when looking at the 1/4 mile. That is usually pretty consistent if you correct for DA and shows the capability of the car. There are a lot less variables in the 1/4 mile then there are in road racing.

 

[TORQJNKY]

Most people look at trap speed, not ET when looking at the 1/4 mile. That is usually pretty consistent if you correct for DA and shows the capability of the car. There are a lot less variables in the 1/4 mile then there are in road racing.

Trap speed will only win you Texas Mile races. Yes you can estimate what a car will run in the 1/4 using trap speed, but I don't care how fast you were going when you crossed the line, trap speed doesn't when 1/4 miles races, time does, so you can estimate all you want. And yes, of course there are a lot fewer variables in 1/4 mile racing. Your talking 1,320ft of strait pavement over 9-12 seconds vs 13 miles and 73 turns of pavement over 7-8 minutes.

Bottom line is both the 1/4 mile and ring, or any measured road course for that matter, are used as measures of performance, or times at the finish lines of these proving grounds would not matter.

 

[TORQJNKY]

So don't tell me you don't care about open track times, because Ford does.....

So because Ford cares, we have to care? :dw: Then Ford should publish them. But, funny how the first place owners took the 13 GT500 was to the 1/4 mile track and not the road course. :shrug:

 

[dtheo]

So because Ford cares, we have to care? :dw: Then Ford should publish them. But, funny how the first place owners took the 13 GT500 was to the 1/4 mile track and not the road course. :shrug:

Yes you should care son! lol :beer:

Just picking on you guys, to each his won...:burnout:

 

[01LightningGal]

Yes Ford cares about track times. That is why they said that they welcome any direct comparisons with any vehicle at any track.

No, Ford will not release Ring times unless they have no choice (due to a slander type of piece).

Ford released nothing performance on this car. They let the media do it all. In other words, they let the car do the talking. Unlike the ZL1, Ford did not rent the entire ring and have their pro driver run their specially prepped car 30-50 runs under the best conditions, to try to get a hero run.

You can fault Ford all you want, but nobody, and I mean nobody will ever be able to reproduce times that GM has run, on anything. In the short term, they can use them as a marketing tool (for tools ), but as time goes by, and no human can reproduce the times that they have, they will become a joke, and a fairy tale that people roll their eyes at, when they hear it mentioned.

I prefer Fords approach.

 

[mhh371]

Woah! Don't take away my entertainment for the weekend..

Seriously though, its not a good track to set standards for because of no set rules on how to properly time a car and the weather changes so frequently it would almost be impossible to replicate the same results unless a shootout was setup between the cars.

Personally I think the GT500 and ZL1 need to be set at a few American courses since that's where they will actually be driven..

You hit the nail on the head!! I'm with you and glad someone (especially from the EU sector!!!) said how it should be. There will be very few of these cars exported to Europe. So do Euro tracks even come into play? Most of these cars will see street cruising and maybe the occasional drag strip. As for actual road courses, most people on these boards won't ever track one.

These cars were derived in 1960's America and were raced on weekends and in a straight line. They were capable of carrying four (4) people, although today's cars that really isn't the case. My 2010 GT500 can hold my two (2) children or a pair of sub 5'10" (80kg) adults. Yes there were versions that were road raced, and those were the Z-28 and Boss production lines. X amount of publicly produced and sold cars had to be made to qualify for certain series. I've tried to keep this portion very simple as it would seem there are some rocks on the boards, being able to turn on a computer and enter a URL does not prove intelligence. Bottom line, they aren't road race cars that are going to be entering races and laying the smack down on the likes of Porsche, BMW, Audi, I'll let you insert the Italian names here.....They are made for the John Q. Public to show off and run their head about who has the best whatever.....

Get them while you can. With the addition of launch control, manufacturers have given people the ability to go 0-60 in the 4.0 or lower time slot....it's not that the cars accelerate this fast, its that you have two (2) tons of steel accelerating to that point, and then continue accelerating. So Grandpa out on his trip to the grocery store see's a car leaving a red light thinking it's going the 35mph posted speed limit he has always seen in town and POW he gets run through with one of these vehicles. At some point the powers that be (yeah they are are rocks too) will step in and say whoa Nelly you can't make these machines anymore, they kill people. Although it was really the nut behind the wheel not the car that did the damage.

I'm sure in due time there will be enough testing and hack write ups that prove both cars are the best, and in two years people will still be bickering over which came in first.

Mine (Ford of course...) is on order. What matters is what makes me happy. If you want a ZL1, buy one. If you want a GT500 buy one. If you can't afford either, stay off the boards. Comment on the vehicle(s) you own and drive. Should someone really want to run their head and back it up there is a show called Pinks. Perhaps someone can get one started on a road course and become famous too....don't forget to tip me when you do this one!!!

As for the age old argument of the IRS versus SRA....my opinion (we all have one and know what they smell like right???), is that people that flap their gums about the Ford rear end set up are just incompetent drivers that need the added security of a forgiving suspension. Learn to drive what you own and have some fun.

Any questions? Didn't think so.....let the flames begin!!

 

[Captain Beyond]

So because Ford cares, we have to care? :dw: Then Ford should publish them. But, funny how the first place owners took the 13 GT500 was to the 1/4 mile track and not the road course. :shrug:

:lol:

I don't recall seeing any road course lap times for the zl1 either, just a bunch of pathetic 1/4 mile times. :lol1:

 

[Devious_Snake]

You hit the nail on the head!! I'm with you and glad someone (especially from the EU sector!!!) said how it should be. There will be very few of these cars exported to Europe. So do Euro tracks even come into play? Most of these cars will see street cruising and maybe the occasional drag strip. As for actual road courses, most people on these boards won't ever track one.

These cars were derived in 1960's America and were raced on weekends and in a straight line. They were capable of carrying four (4) people, although today's cars that really isn't the case. My 2010 GT500 can hold my two (2) children or a pair of sub 5'10" (80kg) adults. Yes there were versions that were road raced, and those were the Z-28 and Boss production lines. X amount of publicly produced and sold cars had to be made to qualify for certain series. I've tried to keep this portion very simple as it would seem there are some rocks on the boards, being able to turn on a computer and enter a URL does not prove intelligence. Bottom line, they aren't road race cars that are going to be entering races and laying the smack down on the likes of Porsche, BMW, Audi, I'll let you insert the Italian names here.....They are made for the John Q. Public to show off and run their head about who has the best whatever.....

Get them while you can. With the addition of launch control, manufacturers have given people the ability to go 0-60 in the 4.0 or lower time slot....it's not that the cars accelerate this fast, its that you have two (2) tons of steel accelerating to that point, and then continue accelerating. So Grandpa out on his trip to the grocery store see's a car leaving a red light thinking it's going the 35mph posted speed limit he has always seen in town and POW he gets run through with one of these vehicles. At some point the powers that be (yeah they are are rocks too) will step in and say whoa Nelly you can't make these machines anymore, they kill people. Although it was really the nut behind the wheel not the car that did the damage.

I'm sure in due time there will be enough testing and hack write ups that prove both cars are the best, and in two years people will still be bickering over which came in first.

Mine (Ford of course...) is on order. What matters is what makes me happy. If you want a ZL1, buy one. If you want a GT500 buy one. If you can't afford either, stay off the boards. Comment on the vehicle(s) you own and drive. Should someone really want to run their head and back it up there is a show called Pinks. Perhaps someone can get one started on a road course and become famous too....don't forget to tip me when you do this one!!!

As for the age old argument of the IRS versus SRA....my opinion (we all have one and know what they smell like right???), is that people that flap their gums about the Ford rear end set up are just incompetent drivers that need the added security of a forgiving suspension. Learn to drive what you own and have some fun.

Any questions? Didn't think so.....let the flames begin!!

bloody hell! great post! :beer:

 

[mhh371]

bloody hell! great post! :beer:

Thanks. Just had to get that off my chest. I'll be able to sleep better tonight!!!!

Be sure to post some pictures of Leticia when she arrives!

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

So what your saying is 1/4 mile times can't vary because of track conditions?!! :shrug: That's just a stupid argument. DA, track prep, ambient temperature etc etc etc... all effect 1/4 mile times as well as ring times. 8-10 seconds in a 7 minute run or .3 seconds in a 11 second run, same thing.

A straw man is a type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position.​

not ONCE did i ever say that "1/4 mile times can't vary". in fact, i would say that the performance metric that we call the '1/4 mile' isn't in any way comparable to this pseudo-metric we call the 'nurburgring' because of NUMEROUS variables.

we get a NUMBER of quarter mile times, in STOCK cars(the general public usually verifies this with similar times), put up by INDEPENDENT SOURCES, in the span of ONE DAY(I.E., you don't see magazines making non-showroom changes to the car to achieve a better time).

meanwhile, over in fantasy land - whoops, i mean deutschland - all we get is ONE TIME, in a MODIFIED CAR(6 point roll cage at the very minimum), put up by the FACTORY instead of an INDEPENDENT SOURCE, over the course of WEEKS of tuning(don't tell me that you seriously believe they don't change the suspension settings over the course of that time. why do you think the '07 nissan GT-R went from 7:38.xx to 7:29.xx).

IMO, the two biggest facts that disqualify the nurburgring as any kind of performance metric. the first is the very fact that a number of the cars are indisputably modified with 6 point roll cages at MINIMUM. seeing as how one car may drop a half second with a roll cage, while another car with a ****ing garbage wet noodle of a chassis drops maybe 8 seconds with a roll cage. those times simply aren't comparable. for instance, GM runs the ZR1 corvette at the ring with a roll cage while the SRT group ran the dodge viper SRT-10 ACR without a roll cage. and you think that's comparable? lets put drag radials on the GT500 "for safety"bored and compare it to the camaro ZL1 on stock shit goodyears.

the second fact is that we only have ONE - 1 - UNO - I - a singular nurburgring time for nearly all of the cars that have been put on the 'ring. this is equivalent to joe blow ford fanboy running around proclaiming "ALL 2010 GT500s RUN 11.95 ETs NO MATTER THE CONDITIONS BECAUSE EVAN SMITH DID IT". for all we know, the 7:41.xx that GM put down with the ZL1 is a major outlier that isn't representative of what the car will do 99% of the time. for all we know, 'every single other time GM got with the ZL1 was an 8:02.37, but a 150MPH tailwind happened to pick up during the 7:41.xx run ONLY when the ZL1 was going down the main straight.' simply put, there is a reason that we consider MULTIPLE quarter mile times, there is a reason that we consider MULTIPLE dyno runs, there is a reason that land speed cars run in BOTH DIRECTIONS within 1 hour during a record attempt, there is a reason that any reputable drag racing organization doesn't put a record in print until it's BACKED UP, etc., etc., etc.


i'll lay out that "official nurburgring lap time" info again...
one lap time
set by a manufacturer instead of an independent source
in indisputably modified cars
over the course of weeks of tuning


(BTW, the caps and bolding aren't denoting yelling/screaming, rather merely emphasis. except for 'joe blow ford fanboy', he's totally yelling/screaming)

 

[Captain Beyond]

I disagree with your comment about ring times. That's like saying "You absolutely cannot use 1/4 mile times as the benchmark for a cars performance". Ring times are a performance benchmark for cars purpose built for the road course (ZR1, Z06, ZL1 etc...) and same for quarter mile times regarding the 13 GT500. The ZR1 and Z06 just happen to do both well is great, but they were not purpose built for 1/4 mile racing.

It wouldn't kill me if the 13 GT500 ring time was never released, it wasn't built to circle the ring, it was built to beat down 1320's. I think some people want to know because they are grasping at any performance trait the ZL1 may be better at than the GT500, because to date, the ZL1 is holding a hand full of it's own ass.

:lol:

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

i missed that part, LMFAO!

 

[TORQJNKY]

:lol:

i missed that part, LMFAO!

I'm sure both of you are RIGHT about everything you say (because you think you are) and there is no changing that.

Captain Insano: The ZL1 did go to the 1/4 as well, but it also posted road couse times. Like the ZR1 and Z06 it's an all around car, it does both performance benchmarks well for it's automotive class. All the hype surrounding the GT500 has only been backed up in 1/4 mile times, nothing else. Ok, I'll admit, the ZL1 may not be "Purpose" built for the road course, but it is definitely set up for it more than it is the 1/4 mile (just like the ZR1 and Z06) and that appears to be GM's intent with the various suspension and handling upgrades.

Ry_Trapp0; Your quality assurance program is missing OQE.

1. Comment. The 07 GTR (7:38) was not modified, it was stock and the (7:29) time was improved on a year later by a 2009 GTR in better weather conditions. The cars were unchanged between 2007-2009 and no roll cage was used the 2nd time. So sure, you could improve 8 seconds on a 13 mile course and here's why, track conditions not a roll cage:

Press Release: http://www.autoblog.com/2008/05/01/gt-r-drops-ring-time-down-to-7-29/

2. Viper ACR comment is recended as pointed out by Redzone, my mistake. Both Viper versions are impressive. Both the ACR and ACR-X are specifically modified and tuned for track performance. Although the ZR1 and Z06's are built for the track duty, they are very comfortable daily drivers. If you've ever driven a Viper or ZR1, the difference is uncomparable. There's something to be said for running a 7:19 and riding like a Cadillac, not a go-kart.

3. You're Wrong. The ZR1 did not have a roll cage nor did it have chassis modifications, it had Sparco racing seats, a seat belt harness bar (not a full cage), and a fire bottle—and data equipment.

Read: http://www.vetteweb.com/lifestyle/vemp_1111_chevrolet_corvette_zr1_nurburgring/viewall.html. A harness bar provides minimal if any chassis stiffness.

4. Comment. I agree with you that using Ring times to compare cars can have its problems because of different drivers, test condition, test methods (# of laps), and just the length of the track. 13 mile track and 73 turns is key. Different driver, one slower turn, not quite as fast on a straight etc... and times can change drastically. A shorter track like VIR or any number of other US road course tracks may be a better comparison.

This report on the Viper ACR record run supports the track condition varialbes that can effect time:

"Hot-lap testing was spread over two days. On Sept. 12, the track was completely wet at the beginning of the four-hour session. By the final hour, the track was mostly dry but peak performance was limited due to a few remaining damp areas at the Bergwerk corner and ****sröhre and Wippermann areas. The best lap of the day was a 7:15.6 at the end of the session. By Sept. 14, a clear weather pattern allowed the track to dry and gave the team good conditions for the Viper ACR’s final lap of 7:12.13."

Bottom line: No average driver, on any day, on any course, can produce times like these, so arguing about them is pointless, but I do think all performance cars should be tested and timed at all aspects of performance they are built for. If the benchmark is the Ring and the quarter mile, then so be it.

 

[Redzone]

2. Your wrong. The SRT-10 Viper ACR comes factory with a SCCA-certified roll cage installed. Although street legal, this car is built specifically for the track:

Read, 2010 Dodge Viper SRT10 ACR-X - First Drive Review - Car and Driver

"The dash and center console remain and an eight-point, SCCA-certified roll cage and fuel cell have been fitted, but the cabin is definitely sparse with no side windows to roll down, a single racing seat and harness, and a removable Momo steering wheel. Other racing add-ons include a fire-suppression system, transmission and differential coolers, and larger front brake rotors fed by ducting that is more efficient than the street car’s."

You're (contraction of "you are") the one who is mistaken....you're confusing the ACR with the ACR-X.

 

[TORQJNKY]

You're (contraction of "you are") the one who is mistaken....you're confusing the ACR with the ACR-X.

:thumbsup: