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rphinney said:
Interesting, I guess I should go invest in some mental help as well, because not only does the Ford GT look way better than the Enzo, but the Enzo is fugly.
Ok, the GT compares very well with the Enzo and Carrera GT...
- Thread starter CharlieCobra03
- Start date
Interesting, I guess I should go invest in some mental help as well, because not only does the Ford GT look way better than the Enzo, but the Enzo is fugly.
Everything on the Enzo is there for one specific reason, performance. I was able to get up close and sit in one this summer and let me tell you it is a work of art. Looks are strictly opinion. The amount of engineering and detail put into those is unreal. Absolutely stunning inside and out. Everything on that car is state of the art. I have also seen a FGT up close and they are quite impressive, but fall a bit short on engineering, refinement, and detail. When I was talking to the owner of the Enzo he said that the GT would hang for a few hot laps but would get destroyed after that. Perfect shifts everytime. Just hearing that v-12 fire up made me shiver.
They are both very sweet rides but I goota tell you, I'm not a huge fan of all these retro looking cars that the U.S. car makers are turning out. We need to look to the future, not the good ole days. They are gone and will NEVER be back. Sorry.
They are both very sweet rides but I goota tell you, I'm not a huge fan of all these retro looking cars that the U.S. car makers are turning out. We need to look to the future, not the good ole days. They are gone and will NEVER be back. Sorry.
Finally someone willing to look at things from a performance point of view, The enzo outperforms the GT. And in terms of prestige a much more exclusive car. Though the GT is an awesome car in person, it is not an Enzo.
rphinney said:
I did not want to come on here and bash any cars. I was the same way with my Viper when the GT came, trying to justify why the viper was still better becasue it was not as expensive and could be made to beat it with only a few mods. I think many people get so caught up their allegences that they find ways to bash any other car.
Maybe when I get out of school I will look at a GT, but if money were no object you would have to be nuts not to take an enzo from a performance standpoint. In the end, personal preference is all that matters. :rockon:
I think if just the visual aspect is considered, the Carrera and the Ford would be an easy pic with the Enzo a very close second. The Enzo is a work of art cept for that front end. Technically speaking as been mentioned the Enzo is a pure bred race car in street clothes, as is the Carrara. The Enzo blows away both the other cars in perfomance as well. But as the original post brings to light, for the money the Ford Gt is a hands down winner. But they're all fabul;ous pieces of art on wheels. I'll take one of each!!
One more reason why I favor the Ford GT is that it is all-American. IT makes me proud to live here and wave the flag. I don't care if an Italian car is faster, I still won't buy one, nor a German car. Not bashing those cars, they are really great designs, great engineering, and all that, but I like to be proud of my country, and the Ford GT gives me that opportunity.
Just for the record, I also like Corvettes and Mustangs. Gonna get the new Mustang Cobra (if and when it comes out) for a daily driver. Love the way it looks!
rphinney, relax! Do you race many Vipers out in Bakersfield? Do you race on the street, or on track? Last time I went out, I was at WillowSprings, chasing a 2002 ZO6 on Hoosiers. I was on hard old street tires. We were both doing 1:36 laps, which seems to be my plateau there for now, until I dump some more money into tires and brakes. Stock Vipers attain 1:30 with the right driver. I'm still learning, so I've got a ways to go. You ever driven WillowSprings? If so, what kind of times do you do there? Streets or slicks? Is your car modified? Mine's got Corsa cat back, thats it. Living in Bakersfield, you are pretty close to ButtonWillow. You run there? I suck at that track, 'cause I don't get out that way much. Last time I was there I was doing configuration 13, CW, (my first time on that config and direction) and running very consistent 2:25s. (http://www.viperdays.com/button2004.html) I just ran out of time to get any better! The track was muddy, but thats no excuse, 'cause the more experienced Viper drivers like Terry Rossi were doing 2:06s, on streets. When it was dry, Terry was doing 2:00 and 2:02s. The one and only time I did Thunderhill (With Cyclone), I was doing 2:15s easily, consistently. I'm ready to improve there. (http://www.viperdays.com/thunder2004.html)
Its very easy for you to say you see Vipers in your mirror, so just what are you talking about? Wanna come to a Viper Days event at WillowSprings in January? Sometimes we get Ferraris there, Mustangs, Corvettes, whatever. It would be a good opportunity for you to spank lots of Vipers, and show me just how good you are. Who knows, maybe you are an experienced road racer with a highly modified race car, that will kick my butt. I'd be willing to sign up for that event, just to find out. If you beat me, good for you, then I will know you mean business when you say you just see GTS's in your mirror. If I beat you, then you will have a good look at my GTS tailights. Either way, it will be in good fun. You up for it?
Just for the record, I also like Corvettes and Mustangs. Gonna get the new Mustang Cobra (if and when it comes out) for a daily driver. Love the way it looks!
rphinney, relax! Do you race many Vipers out in Bakersfield? Do you race on the street, or on track? Last time I went out, I was at WillowSprings, chasing a 2002 ZO6 on Hoosiers. I was on hard old street tires. We were both doing 1:36 laps, which seems to be my plateau there for now, until I dump some more money into tires and brakes. Stock Vipers attain 1:30 with the right driver. I'm still learning, so I've got a ways to go. You ever driven WillowSprings? If so, what kind of times do you do there? Streets or slicks? Is your car modified? Mine's got Corsa cat back, thats it. Living in Bakersfield, you are pretty close to ButtonWillow. You run there? I suck at that track, 'cause I don't get out that way much. Last time I was there I was doing configuration 13, CW, (my first time on that config and direction) and running very consistent 2:25s. (http://www.viperdays.com/button2004.html) I just ran out of time to get any better! The track was muddy, but thats no excuse, 'cause the more experienced Viper drivers like Terry Rossi were doing 2:06s, on streets. When it was dry, Terry was doing 2:00 and 2:02s. The one and only time I did Thunderhill (With Cyclone), I was doing 2:15s easily, consistently. I'm ready to improve there. (http://www.viperdays.com/thunder2004.html)
Its very easy for you to say you see Vipers in your mirror, so just what are you talking about? Wanna come to a Viper Days event at WillowSprings in January? Sometimes we get Ferraris there, Mustangs, Corvettes, whatever. It would be a good opportunity for you to spank lots of Vipers, and show me just how good you are. Who knows, maybe you are an experienced road racer with a highly modified race car, that will kick my butt. I'd be willing to sign up for that event, just to find out. If you beat me, good for you, then I will know you mean business when you say you just see GTS's in your mirror. If I beat you, then you will have a good look at my GTS tailights. Either way, it will be in good fun. You up for it?
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GTSpartan said:
This is a quote from the man that runs "One Lap of America", Senior Editor of Car & Driver - Brock Yates. Inventor of the 'Cannonball Run'.
Quote: (Sept. 2002 Car & Driver)
"Although several other car magazines would have you believe that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are the ne plus ultra of fast road cars, a look at the results of both these events (OLOA and Super Car Challange) reveals that the potency of those exotics is seriously overhyped. Not one of them appeared for the Supercar Challenge, and not a single Ferrari in the nearly two-decade history of One Lap has ever finished in the top 25. This year, a well-prepared, well-driven Lamborghini Diablo struggled to finish 10th, mainly because boulevard-style brakes were not up to the task of hauling down the 3600-pound cruiser for slow corners. Said the owner after the finish, 'We brought a jackknife to a gun fight.'
By the way, I've got $5000 on the table that says there isn't a Ferrari in the world that can finish in the top three at the 2003 One Lap of America.
Truth be known, the marques that consistently do well in the high-speed games that you'll read about in these pages are Corvettes, Vipers, Porsches, and BMWs. Year in and year out, they're the major players, and all the swooning about Italian iron fades away when the party gets rough. I know this is heresy: Italian cars look great on Rodeo Drive and parked in front of the Hôtel de Paris in Monaco, but when it comes to a hard-core street fight, they're as soft as mozzarella in the Tuscan sun. And that goes for the gold-chain wankers in the Ferrari Challenge—the only people they can beat are one another."
-End quote.
Gee, harsh words from a race organizer! Wonder why he says that? Just hates Ferraris? There's $5000 for whatever Ferrari owner can prove him wrong.
I think at this level of automotive excellence, it comes down to not what the car can do, but what the driver can do. Its one thing to bench race and trade mag numbers, but its another thing entirely to actually get on a track and extract all the performance from whatever car you've got. I wonder if that Enzo owner has the balls like Bryan Herta, to come off the banking at Ford's Arizona Proving Grounds at 211 mph? Very few of us can say that we can hang at those speeds, never mind the car. I have found that most sports cars have higher limits than the average street driver knows how, or can use on track. Street skills, and 1/4 mile skills don't necessarily translate to high speed track skills. Its a different world, and requires training. Long story, but short answer is go to the track with whatever car you have, be it a Mustang, Corvette, Viper, GT, Enzo, whatever, and find out where YOUR limits are! Betcha run out of balls before your car does!
The Enzo is naturally aspirated, while the FGT is s/c'd, so the FGT may be more subject to heat soak. Its not like the GT will blow up, but lap after lap, it may lose some hp to the heat. The GT's block is a tougher alloy than the truck 5.4, and there are many upgrades to the bearings, rods, etc, that make the GT engine really tough under fire. Someone here I think (BillyGman?) said that it has a Lysholm twin screw, or some other type of blower that doesn't make as much heat like a Roots does, so who knows. I don't claim to know, but I do know I am absolutely a loyal fan of our all-American Ford, even if its not faster than the Enzo. (The Enzo better be faster, with 100 extra HP, and a sticker price of an Orange County house!)
If (God willing) I get a Ford GT, I will take it to WillowSprings and see for myself if it suffers from heat soak. Its usually about 100 degrees in the summer out there, so it will be a good place to test it.
last word before I'm out on the issue- GTS Matt, the Chrysler ME 4-12 doesn't look like anything from the past!
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ferrari owns the formula one circuit. an enzo is the baddest car on the planet hands down and that is the end of that. it is so funny to hear people try to compare and justify their new cars because of some stupid allegience to american muscle. i am a fan of cars period i love american muscle i love high reving shit i love it all. all the ford gt ownners stop right there you are trying to live outside your realm. btw, i think the ford gt is a marvelous car and would kill to own one. let's face it you guys are one pulley swap and full exhaust system away from an easy ten second ride. but sometimes people just don't make sense to me. also i own an 04 cobra and it's one of my favorites, but i don't go around comparing it an benz amg 55 either. clearly one of these is in a surperior class. as far as looks that's totally subjective.
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i will say that you sir actually own the baddest american muscle on the planet. i took a ride in one with 725rwhp and all i can say is holy sh**. also i have been looking at buying an 02 with the acr package on it. what do you suppose would be a good price on that. if you can believe it a dodge dealer about 15 min from me has a brand new (literally) still in his showroom. the wacko still wants 85k for it. anyhow i would lastly say that the chrysler is the baddest and is gonna be well over a mill but the time they hit floor. i will then give it all the do it deserves.
I thought you were kidding me for a minute! I don't think the Viper is the best, but its the best I can afford right now. Mine's just stock, and I can't imagine what 725 ponies feels like. When I first got it, I thought it was pretty strong. The most power I had up to that point was my C4 vert, BPU'd to about 345HP. Thats about what my son's 99 Mustang Cobra makes now. 450 hp seemed like a lot when I first bought it, but once you learn to point it straight before applying full throttle, and feather the throttle coming out of a power slide, it seems tame, and once again you need more power! I do like the car a lot. Its the best thing I have ever owned thus far. A very satisfying experience all around.
Here are a couple of downsides to tracking the Gen2 Viper- If you wad it up on the track, you are out big bucks. Its the most expensive car to repair, even more expensive than most Ferraris, by some accounts. Thats because the suppliers only make a limited number of parts, for a very low production run. A new factory hood is about $12,000, or $14,000, I can't remember which. Aftermarket hoods are much cheaper, but still pricey. Front fascia is like $3000, a pair of side sills is $3500, and the list of bent and broken minor parts, plus labor, works out to an average repair cost of $25,000, no matter which end you whack it on. If you bend the frame, the insurance company totals it. I haven't wadded mine up, but I know of a few who have, on track. It ruins their whole day. Then it ruins their whole year, because auto insurance doesn't pay for timed events. If they financed their purchase, they then are "paying on a dead horse", and with interest, they may be paying $100,000 in total of payments on that dead critter. In that regard, a less expensive car like a Vette, Mustang, etc, makes better sense if you wanna pound on your car, or thrash it on the track. You don't lose so much to depreciation, repair costs are way lower, and you don't pay the "Viper tax" for parts. Because of these kinds of issues, a lot of Viper owners who got interested in track events have moved on to spec racers, Radicals, Stohrs, Swifts, etc. They aren't street legal, and have to be towed to the track. But you can race all day for relatively little money. If you bend it up, you are only looking at hundreds to very low thousands in repairs, instead of many tens of thousands. Plus, those light little spec racers get better lap times with their puny 150HP engines, than you can with a big V10 Viper. Thats apples to oranges of course, but it shows that spec racers 'aint slow, or boring. I don't have a place to store one right now, as my shop is full of elevator parts for a while. But the concept makes a lot of sense.
I suppose, if someone gave me an Enzo, I wouldn't throw it out. (Can you hear the humorous tone in my voice?) Of course, I'm kidding! Its a fantastic automobile! I saw one at the LA auto show, and got to press my greasy little fingers in its orfices, its absolutely the highest quality sports car I have ever seen. Every little thing on it looks like it was carefully machined, chromed, assembled like a freeking rocket ship. Its a work of art. You know, if it was American, I might like it! Heh heh, just kidding again....No, seriously, I totally resepct that car, but I'm still rooting for the home team, and still have hopes that we, (the USA) can make something that can knock it off its throne. A couple of years back on the VCA site, I said I thought Ford should have set their sights higher than the 360, and aimed at the Enzo. But that would have priced the GT so far out of my league, I wouldn't have a snowballs' chance in hell of getting one. As it is, I might actually be able to get a FGT, and am glad its as fast as it is. Its more of an exotic than the Viper is, and I love the shape.
If Chrysler actually sends the ME 4-12 to production, there may be a new pecking order, not that it would matter to me. I won't be able to afford either one. I'll just blather on the internet about how my fantasy car can beat your fantasy car!
Here are a couple of downsides to tracking the Gen2 Viper- If you wad it up on the track, you are out big bucks. Its the most expensive car to repair, even more expensive than most Ferraris, by some accounts. Thats because the suppliers only make a limited number of parts, for a very low production run. A new factory hood is about $12,000, or $14,000, I can't remember which. Aftermarket hoods are much cheaper, but still pricey. Front fascia is like $3000, a pair of side sills is $3500, and the list of bent and broken minor parts, plus labor, works out to an average repair cost of $25,000, no matter which end you whack it on. If you bend the frame, the insurance company totals it. I haven't wadded mine up, but I know of a few who have, on track. It ruins their whole day. Then it ruins their whole year, because auto insurance doesn't pay for timed events. If they financed their purchase, they then are "paying on a dead horse", and with interest, they may be paying $100,000 in total of payments on that dead critter. In that regard, a less expensive car like a Vette, Mustang, etc, makes better sense if you wanna pound on your car, or thrash it on the track. You don't lose so much to depreciation, repair costs are way lower, and you don't pay the "Viper tax" for parts. Because of these kinds of issues, a lot of Viper owners who got interested in track events have moved on to spec racers, Radicals, Stohrs, Swifts, etc. They aren't street legal, and have to be towed to the track. But you can race all day for relatively little money. If you bend it up, you are only looking at hundreds to very low thousands in repairs, instead of many tens of thousands. Plus, those light little spec racers get better lap times with their puny 150HP engines, than you can with a big V10 Viper. Thats apples to oranges of course, but it shows that spec racers 'aint slow, or boring. I don't have a place to store one right now, as my shop is full of elevator parts for a while. But the concept makes a lot of sense.
I suppose, if someone gave me an Enzo, I wouldn't throw it out. (Can you hear the humorous tone in my voice?) Of course, I'm kidding! Its a fantastic automobile! I saw one at the LA auto show, and got to press my greasy little fingers in its orfices, its absolutely the highest quality sports car I have ever seen. Every little thing on it looks like it was carefully machined, chromed, assembled like a freeking rocket ship. Its a work of art. You know, if it was American, I might like it! Heh heh, just kidding again....No, seriously, I totally resepct that car, but I'm still rooting for the home team, and still have hopes that we, (the USA) can make something that can knock it off its throne. A couple of years back on the VCA site, I said I thought Ford should have set their sights higher than the 360, and aimed at the Enzo. But that would have priced the GT so far out of my league, I wouldn't have a snowballs' chance in hell of getting one. As it is, I might actually be able to get a FGT, and am glad its as fast as it is. Its more of an exotic than the Viper is, and I love the shape.
If Chrysler actually sends the ME 4-12 to production, there may be a new pecking order, not that it would matter to me. I won't be able to afford either one. I'll just blather on the internet about how my fantasy car can beat your fantasy car!
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if you took a ride in a supercharged or good for bid a twin turb'd viper you would have a whole new look at that car. i didn't respect what that car was until i took a trip down to west coast viper and was what they can do to this beast. pound for pound mod for mod the viper is by far and away the fastest car in the world. it is the only car where you can see 1,000rwhp/1,000rwtq consistently and easily. (relatively speaking). no ford gt or enzo will ever see that kind of power! the ford gt is much further along in it's potential from the factory as opposed to the viper. the viper is a creampuff from the factory. i'll tell you what i might be getting a viper soon and if i do we should meet up and i'll take you to west coast viper right here in temecula and trust me you'll look at your car different. so tell me good price for an 02 gts withe the acr package on it? i am gonna go look at the car tommorow.
sckcobra said:
The bottom line is that there's no replacement for displacement, and the Viper engine has much more displacement than the Ford GT does, or most any other factory engines for that matter. So that's the reason why it will respond better to forced induction than other engines will. It's because it has more displacement, and therefore much bigger combustion events going on inside the cylinders.
no sh** those things almost 200rwhp with mild boost 7psi
I know what you mean, since the FGT is already s/c'd, its not too far off its limits.
2000 and older had forged pistons, good for lots of boost. 2001 and 2002 have cast pistons, which can't stand more than about 6 psi, or they will get damaged. Those cast pistons are the weakest link, but the bottom end is fine up to about 800hp, depending who you ask. After that, they go with special parts all around. I don't know about the Gen3. (2003 and newer)
John Horton of West Coast Viper is now only a great Viper tuner, he is also wicked fast on the track. He's got a racing Porsche, and I have seen him do 1:24, I think it was, at WillowSprings. Thats too fast for me! Sh*t, anything under 1:30 is scary fast out there. Cool dude!
Another Viper tuner, Jason Heffner, who is out in Maryland I think, has a twin turbo set up for the Viper, and his latest customer's car is putting out 1200hp, 1200lbs/ft torque. He posted the dyno sheet on the VCA site. Wish I had money to burn like that.
I wouldn't be surprised at all to see someone put TTs on a GT and hit 1000 HP. The engine would have to be all new though. The 5.4L crank would probably break at that level of power, and the rods definitely would. I am sure somebody makes a stronger unit they could put in.
It's just a matter of time before the mod engines have some serious components. I mean, there's average joes with turbo 347sbf motors that are turning out 1500hp (or S7 427 @ 575hp). I find it humorous on how huge Dodge needs to go to develop 500hp. 8.3L as opposed to 5.4!
Since were on the topic, don't know if anyone remembers but, Ford designed a 2.1L twin-turbo for the RS-200 back in 85. Put out 700hp.
Fords 514ci (8.4L) crate engine is advertised @ 625hp,
and the 466 (7.5L) @ 550hp.
Which both together wouldn't even surpass the cost of 1 Viper engine.
Since were on the topic, don't know if anyone remembers but, Ford designed a 2.1L twin-turbo for the RS-200 back in 85. Put out 700hp.
Fords 514ci (8.4L) crate engine is advertised @ 625hp,
and the 466 (7.5L) @ 550hp.
Which both together wouldn't even surpass the cost of 1 Viper engine.
fordification said:
Crate engine = racing engine = no emission cerification, no 70,000 mile powertrain warranty. If you want to compare racing engines look at the GTSR motors. 800 hp N/A and will run a full/near full throttle for 24hrs. You can't compare a aftermarket crate engine to a production one. The V-10 is very detuned from the factory and has been proven to be almost unbeatable against the worlds best in international racing. It's not a drag car, it is a raod racing car!
The reason they have 8.3L is because they don't have a BLOWER. They just use different ways to make power. Also, lets not get into the whole cost argument, it gets real old. Peace :thumbsup:
a gtsr motor? is that a viper motor. pound for pound mod for mod the viper is the baddest car on the planet hands down
sckcobra said:
You really can't buy directly a GTS-R motor, but you can get all the components you need from Mopar. That will give you one of the most brutal N/A engines in the world. That is the true potential of the V-10.
Sorry about the hijack
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