People Who've driven both the 03 and 07

[03SBSVT]

what do you think is the best selling point for someone with an 03 to get them into a GT500? prices and weight out of the eqaution.
This is what I posted about the 07 when I first saw it.
http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/showthread.php?t=341937

 

[ON D BIT]

why take weight out of the equation? its part of the car, its part of the balance, its part of the acceleration, its part of the of the handling.

from an 03 to an 07 is not that big of a deal, as i look at it. they are both heavy, out of balance cars with big power. the real difference is the chasis on the 07.

if you did not mind the weight on the 03 then why would one mind it on the 07?:shrug:

 

[ac427cobra]

We've discussed this before but it's a hard discussion to search.

Here are some of the basics:

S-197 chassis far superior and stiffer to the SN95
Front suspension is MUCH improved also
Rear stick axle MUCH better than factory delivered IRS
Handling MUCH improved
Braking MUCH improved
Power plant MUCH improved
Shifter improved

Down side is it's heavier, (but still outhandles predecessor)
More expensive, but at MSRP it's a deal

Those are the highlights!

:thumbsup: :coolman: :beer:

 

[SlowSVT]

ON-D-BIT

For a guy who has never owned either car you seem to be quite the expert.

 

[Dave07997S]

Not to mention the build quality on the 05+ Mustangs is quite a bit better than the cars before it. It still has a lot of plastic, but what plastic it does have it fits well with perfect seams..darn near Japanese quality. I remember when my lease was up on my 01 M3 I was very seriously considering a 04 Screaming Yellow SVT. Galpin had quite a few, but not one of the 04 SVT's they had was put together well. Gaps between the fenders and doors didn't match, the valances were a mess and of course don't need to mention the interior pieces which was a nightmare. Now keep in mind I have had 2 SN95 SVT's and was very interested in the 04 so I am not a Mustang hater...

Dave

 

[chuckstang]

hhahha didnt you know On D Bit is an expert on everything!

 

[SlowSVT]

Not to mention the build quality on the 05+ Mustangs is quite a bit better than the cars before it. It still has a lot of plastic, but what plastic it does have it fits well with perfect seams..darn near Japanese quality. I remember when my lease was up on my 01 M3 I was very seriously considering a 04 Screaming Yellow SVT. Galpin had quite a few, but not one of the 04 SVT's they had was put together well. Gaps between the fenders and doors didn't match, the valances were a mess and of course don't need to mention the interior pieces which was a nightmare. Now keep in mind I have had 2 SN95 SVT's and was very interested in the 04 so I am not a Mustang hater...

Dave

Dave

Not sure what SN95 you were looking at but I would like to comment on your assessment on the build quality of the Cobra. You are basing your comparison between how well the body panels were aligned at the factory and how well the interior panels fit together but there is a bit more to it then that. Perhaps the quality inspector called in sick the day they built Galpins cars but let me tell you the Cobra's that Star Ford received were just about perfect (I spent an hour looking over the one I bought before handing over the check).

I have worked as an electromechanical design engineer for the last 25 years and have a very keen eye for attention to detail and engineering/manufacturing quality issues.

I am in the process of heavily modifying my 04 and have been through every inch of this chassis and had my car completely dismantles right down to the shell. The only thing I can honestly point out that could use some improvement is the number and placement for some of the spot welds and how some of the panels were formed-up but I think that has more to do with allowing for production tolerances and ease of assembly then bad tooling design (I would not be surprised if the SN197 are plagued by the same issues).

Other them that I saw nothing that I would deem "hoky" about how my Cobra has been put together and was actually quite impressed with the packaging of both the mechanical and electrical systems. The wiring harness is well made and layed out. The body panels lined up perfectly, no rattles, the chassis was tight (for a Mustang) and never had any reliability issues with the car. The welder who fabricates roll cages for a living who working on my car commented that he was surprised on how thick some of the sheet metal was in some places compared to other cars he has worked on (that comment was scaring me).

If I was to dismantle an SN197 in the same fashion would I find that it is leagues ahead of the SN95 with regard to build quality? I am sure there are some aspects of the SN197 that have improved but I doubt it's to the level you believe it is. That car is built under the same constraints as every other car coming out of Detroit. Ford Motor Company did not turn over a new leaf in 05 and decided to add more cost to their product in the name of quality. I can tell that just by looking at both cars. My company relocated me to Washington State for a month and rented me a 05 Mustang while I was there. That car had same polymer fit&finished type interior as it's predecessor. I spent some time looking the car over in detail to see how different the design was from my Cobra and to be honest it appeared to be about the same level of build quality which in my opinion is not a bad thing. The one aspect of the SN197 that did stand out was the stiffness of the chassis. Other then that, the car was unremarkable. I've read quite a few articles where the journalist was very critical of the build quality of the new Mustang but then again they are only looking at what they can see and no further.

Perhaps the later Mustangs have improved over your earlier Mustangs. But what you described seeing at Galpin Ford is not what I was seeing at Star Ford (Glendale).

 

[TheFleshRocket]

S-197 chassis far superior and stiffer to the SN95

I'm pretty happy with the chassis stiffness on my '04. Superior chassis? Maybe, but I suspect that "superiority" comes from people maligning the Fox chassis for how old it was.

Front suspension is MUCH improved also

How so?

Rear stick axle MUCH better than factory delivered IRS

I have a hard time believing that. After comparing my near-stock-suspended '04 Cobra to my well-modified '89 GT, I can say that I doubt I will ever buy another solid axle car. The IRS is just that much better.

Handling MUCH improved
Braking MUCH improved

Got any hard numbers to support those facts? 80-0 distances, or roadholding lateral gs? Lap times?

Power plant MUCH improved

Eh, it's essentially an iron block version of the GT motor, and a 5.4 liter version of the 4.6 Cobra motor. So it's got more displacement, that's for sure. But other than that, how is it "much" improved over the Cobra?

 

[Dave07997S]

Dave

Not sure what SN95 you were looking at but I would like to comment on your assessment on the build quality of the Cobra. You are basing your comparison between how well the body panels were aligned at the factory and how well the interior panels fit together but there is a bit more to it then that. Perhaps the quality inspector called in sick the day they built Galpins cars but let me tell you the Cobra's that Star Ford received were just about perfect (I spent an hour looking over the one I bought before handing over the check).

I have worked as an electromechanical design engineer for the last 25 years and have a very keen eye for attention to detail and engineering/manufacturing quality issues.

I am in the process of heavily modifying my 04 and have been through every inch of this chassis and had my car completely dismantles right down to the shell. The only thing I can honestly point out that could use some improvement is the number and placement for some of the spot welds and how some of the panels were formed-up but I think that has more to do with allowing for production tolerances and ease of assembly then bad tooling design (I would not be surprised if the SN197 are plagued by the same issues).

Other them that I saw nothing that I would deem "hoky" about how my Cobra has been put together and was actually quite impressed with the packaging of both the mechanical and electrical systems. The wiring harness is well made and layed out. The body panels lined up perfectly, no rattles, the chassis was tight (for a Mustang) and never had any reliability issues with the car. The welder who fabricates roll cages for a living who working on my car commented that he was surprised on how thick some of the sheet metal was in some places compared to other cars he has worked on (that comment was scaring me).

If I was to dismantle an SN197 in the same fashion would I find that it is leagues ahead of the SN95 with regard to build quality? I am sure there are some aspects of the SN197 that have improved but I doubt it's to the level you believe it is. That car is built under the same constraints as every other car coming out of Detroit. Ford Motor Company did not turn over a new leaf in 05 and decided to add more cost to their product in the name of quality. I can tell that just by looking at both cars. My company relocated me to Washington State for a month and rented me a 05 Mustang while I was there. That car had same polymer fit&finished type interior as it's predecessor. I spent some time looking the car over in detail to see how different the design was from my Cobra and to be honest it appeared to be about the same level of build quality which in my opinion is not a bad thing. The one aspect of the SN197 that did stand out was the stiffness of the chassis. Other then that, the car was unremarkable. I've read quite a few articles where the journalist was very critical of the build quality of the new Mustang but then again they are only looking at what they can see and no further.

Perhaps the later Mustangs have improved over your earlier Mustangs. But what you described seeing at Galpin Ford is not what I was seeing at Star Ford (Glendale).

I couldn't believe it..even the Cobra badges were off. As far as buiild quality the S197 ismuch better than the SN95, I owned 2 of them. The way the SN95 shifter panel fit into the center pieces was always bad in these cars, and not to mention the center click on the HVAC controls was always off. The 05+ Mustang GT's I drove and rode in them were buttoned down much better. Check my sig I owned a 95 and a 98 Mustang Cobra, maybe I got spoiled after the 01M3 to go back into a 04 Cobra at the time..getting older I guess:-D

 

[03SBSVT]

why take weight out of the equation? its part of the car, its part of the balance, its part of the acceleration, its part of the of the handling.

from an 03 to an 07 is not that big of a deal, as i look at it. they are both heavy, out of balance cars with big power. the real difference is the chasis on the 07.

if you did not mind the weight on the 03 then why would one mind it on the 07?:shrug:

Because smart one, I wanted the highlights of the car, not the "ohhh pitty me it weighs 4k pounds my terminator is lighter blah blah" shit. I don't care about the weight on either, as why I said to take it out of the eqaution. :cuss:

 

[03SBSVT]

hhahha didnt you know On D Bit is an expert on everything!

no I didn't, enlighten me. :dw: :lol:

I'm pretty happy with the chassis stiffness on my '04. Superior chassis? Maybe, but I suspect that "superiority" comes from people maligning the Fox chassis for how old it was.



How so?



I have a hard time believing that. After comparing my near-stock-suspended '04 Cobra to my well-modified '89 GT, I can say that I doubt I will ever buy another solid axle car. The IRS is just that much better.



Got any hard numbers to support those facts? 80-0 distances, or roadholding lateral gs? Lap times?



Eh, it's essentially an iron block version of the GT motor, and a 5.4 liter version of the 4.6 Cobra motor. So it's got more displacement, that's for sure. But other than that, how is it "much" improved over the Cobra?

Ok, I'm on your side man, but you can't compare a stick axle 2 link fox chassis to a stick axle 3 link S197 chassis. Its like comparing a F350's stick axle to the one in the ford torino, lol.

and for the motor part, it does have bigger intake ports and bigger heads in general which in turn flow better making it a better motor, because we all know flow=hp

 

[ac427cobra]

Dave

I am sure there are some aspects of the SN197 that have improved but I doubt it's to the level you believe it is. That car is built under the same constraints as every other car coming out of Detroit.

I'm not Dave (obviously) but I will throw my .02 cents in here. The S-197 is a completely redesigned chassis which is greatly improved over the SN-95 chassis. It is CONSIDERABLY more rigid, and much better able to resist torsional forces.

Ford Motor Company did not turn over a new leaf in 05 and decided to add more cost to their product in the name of quality.

They did turn over a new leaf in the Mustang chassis department with this new S-197 chassis though! oke:

 

[03SBSVT]

They did turn over a new leaf in the Mustang chassis department with this new S-197 chassis though! oke:

Ringmaster- Yeah the chassis is stiffer but I think in terms of build qaulity he was infering that its a production car and the body panels aren't going to line up any better on it than they did on the 04s, unless of course you're talking used, then the stiffer chassis will keep the panels in alignment better.

 

[ac427cobra]

Dave:

Seeing you're new around here, I'll give you my SN-95 < S-197 comparison speech again.

I own an SN-95 chassis Mustang. A 2000 Cobra R to be exact. I drove the 2000 R brand new from the time it had 17 miles on it. The first time I drove it I was impressed as hell! :rockon: It was like driving a rocket on rails. (little did I know at the time, I had NO CLUE what a rocket on rails really drove like) I am a road racer and since acquiring my R I have heavily modified the car now with NUMEROUS modifications including coil-over suspension and chassis stiffening, roll cage etc, etc, etc. I now know what a "rocket on rails" REALLY is! :bowdown:

I also have a GT500 that has made a visit to the track in relatively stock form and it is my opinion I can drive a stock GT500 faster than I can drive a stock 2000 R on most any track other than a short tight one say, like Blackhawk. That is until the supercharger overheats if it's hot out!

I'm pretty happy with the chassis stiffness on my '04. Superior chassis? Maybe, but I suspect that "superiority" comes from people maligning the Fox chassis for how old it was.

I am very happy that you are pleased with how stiff your chassis is. That's awesome! Ever hear about people talking about Sub-Frame Connectors for the SN-95 chassis? How about Matrix bracing? How about the grandaddy of sub-frame connectors, the Maximum Motorsports Full Length Sub-Frame connectors? I'm sure you have? That's because everybody talks about them and how bad they are needed to help control flex and wheel hop on the SN-95 chassis.

Do you know why you NEVER hear anyone talk about same for the S-197 chassis? They don't need it! :idea:

Front suspension is MUCH improved also

How so?

The lower "A" arms and front suspension geometry are completely redesigned on the S-197 chassis. Take a look under your car and see where the spring is for the front suspension. Then take a look under an S-197 car and see where the spring is. Camber gain, bump steer and roll centers are all improved on the S-197 suspension.

I have a hard time believing that. After comparing my near-stock-suspended '04 Cobra to my well-modified '89 GT, I can say that I doubt I will ever buy another solid axle car. The IRS is just that much better.

Well, believe it. It's true. Your IRS came from the factory with the sub-frame mounted in rubber bushings. Your IRS control arms are also mounted in rubber. Have any idea what all that rubber does when you put pressure on it!?! It gives. Big Style! Do you know why your car wheel hops!?! It's all of the rubber in the IRS. :cryying:

Now, the factory delivered stick axle will run rings around the factory delivered IRS because it's so much more efficient. You can certainly make the IRS better than the stick axle, but it's going to take a few bucks and some effort. See my sig for starters. :-D

Got any hard numbers to support those facts? 80-0 distances, or roadholding lateral gs? Lap times?

14" four pot Brembos > 13" PBR calipers. No discussion required there! :coolman:

Eh, it's essentially an iron block version of the GT motor, and a 5.4 liter version of the 4.6 Cobra motor. So it's got more displacement, that's for sure. But other than that, how is it "much" improved over the Cobra?

5.4 > 4.6 There is no replacement for displacement.

5.4 Ford GT heads > 4.6 heads. 5.4 heads actually BREATHE!! epper:

Eaton model 122 modified Roots > Eaton 112


Let me know if you have an other issues you'd like addressed!

:thumbsup: :coolman: :beer:

 

[ac427cobra]

Ringmaster- Yeah the chassis is stiffer but I think in terms of build qaulity he was infering that its a production car and the body panels aren't going to line up any better on it than they did on the 04s, unless of course you're talking used, then the stiffer chassis will keep the panels in alignment better.

I am CONSTANTLY having to line up my front fenders (at the bottom attachment point) on my R (SN-95) due to chassis flex. AND I have sub-frame connectors, matrix bracing, jacking rails AND a roll cage. :cryying:

 

[2-slow]

Nah, delete this post. It's a never ending war that I want no part of. Bruce, I want a ride in both your cars!

 

[COBRA32]

ac427cobra hit hammer on the nail. Having owned both an 03 Cobra and now a proud owner of an 07 GT500, I will tell you that I had allot of good times in the 03 but now that I have the 07 GT500 it will not be missed to put it bluntly. The 07 is better in every way. The 07 is rattle free, it is also more comfortable, shifter is is in the right place, stereo is better sounding, steering is better, handling is better, its more comfortable and I could go on some more. The 03 and 04 are good cars its just the 07 Shelby is just allot better than both. The 05 and up Mustangs are the best Mustang built to date and the first to based on a highend chasis instead of an economy car chassis. I'am basing this on my ownership of high performance Mustangs from 1984 to 2007 that is 8 different Mustangs in all.

 

[SlowSVT]

Bruce

No one said the SN197 wasn't a great chassis. Just clearing up some mis-conceptions. We both own cars that have way more horsepower then mortal man should ever posess and someone is complaining about the HVAC knob click stop position. This guy obviously never owned an MG.

:beer:

 

[SlowSVT]

I am CONSTANTLY having to line up my front fenders (at the bottom attachment point) on my R (SN-95) due to chassis flex. AND I have sub-frame connectors, matrix bracing, jacking rails AND a roll cage. :cryying:

Somethings not right. Ford stated that the SN197 is something like 37% stiffer in torsion and 56% stiffer in deflection then the SN95. That's a healthy increase (and why it's heavier) but that car will bend and twist just like every car does.......just 37/56% less then an SN95.

Even with all that stuff you are still having problems? Try 6 mm lower fendor screws.

 

[ON D BIT]

hhahha didnt you know On D Bit is an expert on everything!

chuck said it best. i regurgitate a lot of useful others would say helpful information.

but lets go over what i said.

- weight should be talked about when speaking about any car on a performance level. i was assuming that the original poster wanted performance feel in the comparison. wieght needs to be talked about.

- they are the same type of cars. inexpensive unibody chasis made competitive. is this not true?

- i asked a simple question.

how are any of these statements qualify as being from an expert?

Because smart one, I wanted the highlights of the car, not the "ohhh pitty me it weighs 4k pounds my terminator is lighter blah blah" shit. I don't care about the weight on either, as why I said to take it out of the eqaution. :cuss:

the funny thing is, that those that have driven or own a new gt500 fail to mention the weight. yes its heavier than a body on frame sports car, this is noticable and has been talked about. however the threads that i have read from owners say nothing of the added weight over the current mustang gt or the 03/04 mustang svt. the responses from owners in this thread is a good example.

the only complaints i have seen about the weight of the gt500 are from those who have not driven the gt500.:beer: