Separate names with a comma.
Discussion in 'Driveline' started by T800, Sep 14, 2012.
I think your diagnosis is largely accurate.
Steeda for one used to get over 1g on the skidpad with their solid axle suspension setups and that was Friggin over 20 years ago so Yeah Pete I agree it can be done...:rockon:
I'm keeping my IRS though
You're making a completely ridiculous comparison. Stock for stock, the IRS cars ride infinitely better and handle significantly better. As you upgrade each type of rear, they both make significant improvements.
Your key argument rested upon the Griggs comment - which use coilovers, changed spring locations, changed control arm geometry and pickup points, a torque arm and panhard bar. They COMPLETELY change the rear end geometry from the factory 4 link. They are well-set-up and tuned cars built largely for track use with zero considerations for NVH, which they should be. You mind as well compare a 03/04 to a Ford Probe GT, the comparison would be about as relevant.
You can get a SRA to perform without going to all that work ^^^
99 - 2004 Cobra IRS compared to current state of the art IRS sports cars are an obvious miss match in technology, but they are still better than the POS they replaced.
The only SN 95 based live axle cars that handle worth a shit are the ones that changed from the piece of shit 78 Fairmont Quadra-Bind 4 link they came with, to something else like a Griggs or MM torque arm or Steeda 5 link.
If you compare built live axle to built the IRS, the IRS still wins out in ride and handling. The only advantage the live axle has is overall weight and the obvious drag race effectiveness & simplicity.
The implication was...remove IRS...install SRA...boom done, all problems with Terminator are done, and that is anything but the case. I don't find a stock SRA to be stronger, and certainly not a better-handling platform, than a stock IRS. An 8.8 at minimum is going to need the torque boxes welded, axle tubes welded, upper and lower control arms, gears, diff, shocks, axles for your basic drag racing enthusiast and diff, lowers, panhard bar, shocks for your autocross or road race enthusiast. You are talking some serious coin to "get it to work".
Personally, from what I've driven at NJMP and Watkins, I don't think that setup is any better than an IRS with a FTBR kit. You need to put a T/A on a 8.8 before I think it's a conversation even worth having. Which again doubles back to my NVH comment for those that live in the real world.
That's not a sports car it is a pony car/ muscle car.
Thanks for playing.:beer:
YUP wouldn't classify it as an Exotic BUT still one BADASS MOFO:rolling:
This is the original quote that I argued with. As you can see its a pretty dumb statement. I currently have a 96 cobra and had a 99 brand new in 99. I have experience with both on the autocross and a few times open tracking. With similar mods (lowered 1.50 adjustable shocks, and on the 99 stiffer IRS bushings) my 96 handled better than the 99. At the limit the 99 became unsettling and just didn't inspire as much confidence in me. Look at lateral g's from 98 to 99,Slalom numbers, etc. They didn't change too much due to the IRS. You cant compare an 03 because they used a way better tire on that car. Yes the IRS rides way smoother. Does it actually handle better in the sn-95 chassis? In my experience no. Do the numbers suggest it does. No. So I still stand behind my original statement. What I quoted a few posts ago is an ignorant statement.
Did either car get a bump steer adjustment?
The 96 would only need one in the front but a lowered 99 Cobra would need one in front and in the rear.
The 99 was not modded correctly if it did not get one, and that is not the fault of the IRS design at all.
If you are going to modify something it is up to you to make sure you are in fact improving the design and not introducing a new flaw.
It also does not sound like you have nearly enough track seat time to make very meaningful reviews of a cars handling. Not trying to hurt feelings it just is was it is.
Unfortunately, the BF brace just doesn't cut it. My diff cover started leaking again a few days ago. Seems to have coincided with some hard launching on the street where I could feel the wiggle in the rear while I was fighting to keep her straight. Few times now the cover has leaked with the BF brace. That's the last straw for me.
No feelings hurt at all. I agree with you on a couple of points. When my 99 was lowered initially there was not yet a bump steer kit available to correct it. So i had done a few autocrosses before i got one made by steeda and it was unsettleing. Even after they the kit was installed in the rear, the sra still instilled more confidence in me on smooth surfaces. And no. I don't have a ton of seat time on open tracks, but I understand how the handling of a car works and can drive one 9\10 pretty well. Just giving my personal experience. It still does not negate my original point that just because someone wants to put an sra in a cobra it does not mean he wont be able to corner ever again as the person I quoted was implying. But this is a fact. The sn-95 IRS was a design that had to work in the constraints of where the original bolting points for the sra was. That is why it was not a great design. That is also why it does not work as good as a clean sheet IRS design would. Again. Like I said. Does it ride better. Hell yes. Handling is very subjective as the numbers are too close to tell. Can an sra handle? Yes. If I swap an sra into my 03 cobra does that mean I can only go in a straight line? Absolutely not.
Sorry to see that happen to you. My diff was leaking so I just went ahead and got LPW diff cover. So far no issues but it gives me piece of mind. Do you wheel hop a lot when you get on it? I know I did when I had NT555R's in the winter time. I went back to a
NT555 because they last longer for tire wear and to avoid the wheel hop.
So in your OPINION a 2013 GT500 or even a Boss is not a sports car its a pony car that just happens to turn well? Im going to disagree with you on that one.
Thanks for playing.:beer:[/QUOTE]
There is not a single piece of those 2 cars that fit the classic definition of a "sports car". They are "pony cars/muscle cars" period, same as the Terminator. Why you would even try to argue this particular point is beyond me, but I doubt you will find even one other "knowledgeable" person on this board, or any other enthusiast site to agree with you.:rollseyes
Obviously this thread has turned into a heated debate on which suspension is overall superior, and the simple answer is NEITHER! They both have inherent strengths and weaknesses, and the end use is what really is the deciding factor as to which is best for YOU, or YOUR intended use. Obviously either one can be optimized with enough money thrown at them. From my personal experience having built a true "sports car" from the ground up ('65 Cobra replica) that went through many, many suspension setups while I owned it, I can say without a doubt that the IRS is superior in almost every way, with the exception of maybe straight line drag launches on slicks. I spent thousands of dollars trying to optimize the 8.8" solid axle, and found that it was pretty decent with a 3-link, panhard bar setup, but the car was in a completely different league once I switched to IRS. When I first bought my Terminator, I was a bit disappointed with the handling, wheelhop, etc. of the stock IRS, but knew that it was a good platform to start with, and all of that could be corrected. MOST of the problems that the stock IRS has can be fixed simply by stabilizing it with better bushings, and reinforcing known weak areas. For someone who is looking for the easy way out, sure, just dropping in a solid axle swap out of a Mach may suit your needs, but the car will never be as good all around as it would have been if you spent the time and money to correct what you already have.
Yeah...that's my opinion as well. I don't pretend to know all of the forces at work when the rear-end is dealing with what the front-end is putting out. But obviously the brace isn't enough.
No wheel hop at all with the R888's. I am the type that lets up immediately when it has happened in the past...definitely don't drive "through it". I honestly don't beat on the car...was very surprised that it happened. I will be taking a good look today when I start the process of yarding out the old one...LPW cover is on the way.
A GT500 is NOT a sports car! :read: It's a pony car. :idea:
With enough determination (see links below) you can hang with the big boys in those fancy expensive plastic cars. ;-)
I don't think I ever stated that the Cobra IRS was perfect? But it can be upgraded SIGNIFICANTLY compared to what it was when it was stock. And because of the way it was stock is the reason it's received so much hate.
Here's are a few examples of a Cobra IRS spanking a bunch of Z06 Corvettes like redheaded stepchildren:
Z06 Conga Line Part I
Z06 Conga Line Part II w/music compliments of RUSH:
http://www.trackdawgz.com/Videos/Corvette Conga Line Part II.wmv
Z06 Conga Line Part III
http://www.trackdawgz.com/Videos/Z06 Conga line part IIIsm.wmv
Good vids Bruce. I'm actually kind of disappointed to see that there are still people out there that don't realize what an incredible improvement your kit has made on the IRS. I only have your diff kit at the moment and even with just that I've seen a remarkable reduction in wheel hop. Thankfully innovators like yourself never gave up on the IRS. I've been in a SA mustang before and I would never get rid of the IRS.
I agree with you on these points. The gt500 is not a sports car. It's a muscle car. And yes. The IRS can be made to handle well with significant upgrades. I was originally negating your statement that if you get an sra, you can't take turns anymore. That's what came right out of your post. To me, that was an ignorant statement. I did not intend for this to become an sra vs IRS pissing match. When I see someone make an ignorant blanket statement I am gonna call that person out on it. Having said that. Is it really your opinion that an if you have an sra you're only be able to go in straight lines?