Terminator- Shelby Question

[ac427cobra]

colleti messed everything up. yes the mustang chasis was old but it was light. light well compared to every other car on the road at the turn of the century. the mustang chasis was light in those days!
by some brilliant logic of the ford engineering team they decided to take an old light chassis, and create an old heavy car.:bash: yes brilliant. lets give it an iron block. not heavy enough? lets add an irs that does not work. not heavy enough lets add a blower intercooler. this will do two things, add weight and make the car so out of balance it cant compete on a road course without serious modifications.
as a added bonus lets not fix the basic geometric suspension glitches that came standard on the mid 70's fairmont. big power and big weight should be enough to sell 10k units a year, and thats all we care about!:banana:

an 3300lb 03 mustang svt with a al block n/a dohc 5.4 making 340 to the wheels set up with correct street/track geometry with adjustable coilovers on all 4 corners would have been sweet!!!! bonus would have been putting the tranny in back ala the corvette.

and the gt500 what can you say. all new heavier and bigger mustang gt chassis + 400lbs? apparently svt still has their head in the sand!

Did you forget to take your meds?! ;-)oke:

F a road course! (no offense Bruce)

Since when has a Mustang been a road course car? Not in 40 years. The 4 seat competition is all over 2 tons so Ford does not have their head in the sand.

Give me stupid HP and a staight line to point.:rockon:

You'd be suprised how many Mustangs race and OT on the road courses! :read::-D

I agree a Term is a great point and shoot, go fast in a straight line car. :idea:

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[JUST TRY 03]

i dont really understand why people are bitching, the new gt500 is a mustang, so is the terminator, now me personally im not a fan of the new gt500 but to each his own, i dont think the gt 500 owners should think all terminator owners are poor and cant afford a gt 500, or they shouldnt think that just because they have a gt 500 they should be better than terminator owners...

at the end of the day we each own mustangs, its not about who has the biggest/baddest car

 

[tomsgarage]

Ordered my car in 02, delivered in June, paid $30,0000 (A Plan), started doing on track events, spent about $3,000 in upgrades over the years and still having a blast at on track events here in the south for 6 years.

Now lets see for a Shelby when they first came out - $60,000, no money left over for track events, and upgrades!

Now which car gives the biggest bang for the buck??

SVT and Colletti knew that they were building a heavy car, but they wanted to get it to market at a certain pricepoint and also keep the car bullit proof. I think they did a wonderful job!

And does anyone remember an article that Colletti wrote in the SVTOA magazine about getting the weight out of Cobra for the next generation? Maybe that is one of the reasons he retired from Ford.

 

[MWR]

Interesting thread gentlemen. In 2012, BOSS, GT500, and TERMINATOR owners will be having this same argument in the BOSS forum!

 

[SlowSVT]

colleti messed everything up. yes the mustang chasis was old but it was light. light well compared to every other car on the road at the turn of the century. the mustang chasis was light in those days!
by some brilliant logic of the ford engineering team they decided to take an old light chassis, and create an old heavy car.:bash: yes brilliant. lets give it an iron block. not heavy enough? lets add an irs that does not work. not heavy enough lets add a blower intercooler. this will do two things, add weight and make the car so out of balance it cant compete on a road course without serious modifications.
as a added bonus lets not fix the basic geometric suspension glitches that came standard on the mid 70's fairmont. big power and big weight should be enough to sell 10k units a year, and thats all we care about!:banana:

an 3300lb 03 mustang svt with a al block n/a dohc 5.4 making 340 to the wheels set up with correct street/track geometry with adjustable coilovers on all 4 corners would have been sweet!!!! bonus would have been putting the tranny in back ala the corvette.

and the gt500 what can you say. all new heavier and bigger mustang gt chassis + 400lbs? apparently svt still has their head in the sand!

This post almost tops the one where you where giving advice on the proper chassis set-up for a road race GT500.

 

[5.0 guy]

op:keep it comming, I'll miss this tread when it dies!!!op:

 

[SlowSVT]

I agree a Term is a great point and shoot, go fast in a straight line car. :idea:

:nono:

This coming from a person with your background and knowledge I can't figure out :nonono:

I'm beginning to think somewhere a Terminator put a major hurting on you and your ride and you've been bitter ever sinceoke:

 

[Ry_Trapp0]

F a road course! (no offense Bruce)

Since when has a Mustang been a road course car? Not in 40 years. The 4 seat competition is all over 2 tons so Ford does not have their head in the sand.

Give me stupid HP and a staight line to point.:rockon:

eemmm, since its inception?

 

[ac427cobra]

:nono:

This coming from a person with your background and knowledge I can't figure out :nonono:

I'm beginning to think somewhere a Terminator put a major hurting on you and your ride and you've been bitter ever sinceoke:

Well Russ, sorry to say, no Term has ever put a hurt on either my R or the GT500 on a road course, ever. :-D I don't race on the street.:nono:

Point two is the Term is a very heavy car and only some Term owners either realize that fact or will admit to it.:read:

Point three is when the GT500 came out, although it was heavier than the Term, it managed it's porkiness much more impressively due to the awesome chassis and suspension redesign which BTW was sorely needed after more than 25 years.

To further my point on how bad the SN-95 chassis is, go do a search in the Terminator section and see what people have to say about subframe connectors on their cars. Please don't make it sound like it's only me complaining about the flip-flop SN-95 chassis. ;-)

I've said this before and I'm going to reiterate it. The Term was and is a great car. It's always been and will continue to be a performance bargain. However, it wasn't without it's shortcomings. Every car (that I know of) has shortcomings including my 1966 Mustang Coupe (a unibody experiment gone bad), my 1989 SHO (maintenance nightmare), my 2000 SVT Cobra R (flip-flop SN-95 chassis, heavy, poor suspension), my 2007 Shelby GT500 (heavy), my 2004 PSD Excursion (rides worse than an F-350 Super Duty) and believe it or not, even my new SN-95 project (I don't have a list because I haven't driven the car yet but I will No Doubt, be able to make one ;-) ). All of these vehicles have shortcomings and if you can live with the shortcomings a vehicle has then you should be ok with it.

I don't think there should be any confusion with the points I've made above!

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[Stripe Delete]

You'd be suprised how many Mustangs race and OT on the road courses! :read::-D


Yeah I believe it and give credit to those who do curves in any Mustang :beer:
I was just ranting about the SVT - head in the sand comment. I would say SVT is kicking the competions ass since 03 in the four seat muscle car segment in which all cars seem to be 2 tons now. Hell even the almighty Nissan GTR is 4200lbs.

 

[Stripe Delete]

, i dont think the gt 500 owners should think all terminator owners are poor and cant afford a gt 500,

I really doubt too many GT500 owners on this site think that at all. :shrug:
Most of my friends with Terms make pretty good coin.
I remember when the 03s came out in late 02 and I couldnt afford one then. The people I knew buying them then were older, established or had a rich daddy.
The used market has made the cars afordable (if you consider 20K afordable) to a younger group of drivers and the same will happen to the GT500 in a short time.

 

[bluediamond]

You'd be suprised how many Mustangs race and OT on the road courses! :read::-D


Yeah I believe it and give credit to those who do curves in any Mustang :beer:
I was just ranting about the SVT - head in the sand comment. I would say SVT is kicking the competions ass since 03 in the four seat muscle car segment in which all cars seem to be 2 tons now. Hell even the almighty Nissan GTR is 4200lbs.

So true. When I actually saved the coin to be able to purchase the GT500, I really started looking at what else I could buy for 50K and get sub 5 second 0-60, 500hp car etc, and quickly found out that its very difficult.
Even the Porsche Cayman S and the almightly 911 that are supposed to be the king of the (power/weight) ratio are 3600lbs or more.
When the GT500 first came out, I wasnt happy about the extra lb's, but now, its common place for supercars to be 2 tons.
I know we all wish our cars were lighter, but your right about SVT/Shelby owning the segment. Back in 03, the term. owned its segment as well.

 

[SlowSVT]

Well Russ, sorry to say, no Term has ever put a hurt on either my R or the GT500 on a road course, ever. :-D I don't race on the street.:nono:

Point two is the Term is a very heavy car and only some Term owners either realize that fact or will admit to it.:read:

Point three is when the GT500 came out, although it was heavier than the Term, it managed it's porkiness much more impressively due to the awesome chassis and suspension redesign which BTW was sorely needed after more than 25 years.

To further my point on how bad the SN-95 chassis is, go do a search in the Terminator section and see what people have to say about subframe connectors on their cars. Please don't make it sound like it's only me complaining about the flip-flop SN-95 chassis. ;-)

I've said this before and I'm going to reiterate it. The Term was and is a great car. It's always been and will continue to be a performance bargain. However, it wasn't without it's shortcomings. Every car (that I know of) has shortcomings including my 1966 Mustang Coupe (a unibody experiment gone bad), my 1989 SHO (maintenance nightmare), my 2000 SVT Cobra R (flip-flop SN-95 chassis, heavy, poor suspension), my 2007 Shelby GT500 (heavy), my 2004 PSD Excursion (rides worse than an F-350 Super Duty) and believe it or not, even my new SN-95 project (I don't have a list because I haven't driven the car yet but I will No Doubt, be able to make one ;-) ). All of these vehicles have shortcomings and if you can live with the shortcomings a vehicle has then you should be ok with it.

I don't think there should be any confusion with the points I've made above!

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

So I guess this means you’re sticking to your story (LOL)

IMO no Shelby owner should be describing the Terminator as being “porky” without looking at their own ride. That statement certainly raised an eyebrow. I don’t know too many Terminator owners including myself who would describe the Terminator as a featherweight car…….then again it’s quite a bit lighter then the current crop of muscle cars coming out of Detroit. So that point is moot. All that go fast hardware added to the car comes at a price, something, you should know better than anybody.

Whether the car has sub-frames or not the flexi chassis does not seem to effect it’s handling as demonstrated by your Cobra R which will out handle a GT500 as well as a host of other cars. I have studied the chassis structure in detail and I don’t think many people who know where the problems lie better than me as you may find out in the near future.

You mean to tell me the Terminator is no longer a great car? What happened between then and now? That poor suspension you speak of on your Cobra R doesn’t seem to have affected it’s handling which Car&Driver described as “Corvette class handling”. Funny how the GT500 is mysteriously absent from your list of cars with “shortcomings”. Does that mean it doesn’t have any? It if doesn’t then congratulations they have finally engineered the perfect car. The guy who tuned the Cobra R chassis also tuned the chassis on the Terminator and SVT spent a lot of track time fine tuning the suspension.

There is no confusion at my end regarding your post. The perspective just seems to be a bit selective.

You and I have gone round and round on this subject. Trust me if the Terminator was any where near how you describe it one would not be sitting in my garage. The problem is that there are a lot of Shelby enthusiast who buy into this without considering all the details and tend to dismiss aspects of the GT500 that may be critical. People who are a bit more detached from the GT do not share the universal acclaim that seems to be very prevalent here.

The reason I wrote this is because you are a very knowledgeable road racer yet for some reason you go out of your way to point out flaws in this car being it real or imagined which is something I don’t understand. As an engineer I realize there is a price to be paid for every design decision made and very few ever turn out to be “win win” and no design is exempt including the Shelby. I have no illusion regarding the flaws with the Terminator all of which can be correct and in the end results in a car that should be respected by anyone even if you drive a Lamborghini which my car is no stranger to and the driver will be a bit more leery of the next time he encounters one at a light.

No biggie Bruce. This is the only topic where you and I differ.

Be well :beer:

 

[ac427cobra]

So I guess this means you’re sticking to your story (LOL)

IMO no Shelby owner should be describing the Terminator as being “porky” without looking at their own ride. That statement certainly raised an eyebrow. I don’t know too many Terminator owners including myself who would describe the Terminator as a featherweight car…….then again it’s quite a bit lighter then the current crop of muscle cars coming out of Detroit. So that point is moot. All that go fast hardware added to the car comes at a price, something, you should know better than anybody.

Whether the car has sub-frames or not the flexi chassis does not seem to effect it’s handling as demonstrated by your Cobra R which will out handle a GT500 as well as a host of other cars. I have studied the chassis structure in detail and I don’t think many people who know where the problems lie better than me as you may find out in the near future.

You mean to tell me the Terminator is no longer a great car? What happened between then and now? That poor suspension you speak of on your Cobra R doesn’t seem to have affected it’s handling which Car&Driver described as “Corvette class handling”. Funny how the GT500 is mysteriously absent from your list of cars with “shortcomings”. Does that mean it doesn’t have any? It if doesn’t then congratulations they have finally engineered the perfect car. The guy who tuned the Cobra R chassis also tuned the chassis on the Terminator and SVT spent a lot of track time fine tuning the suspension.

There is no confusion at my end regarding your post. The perspective just seems to be a bit selective.

You and I have gone round and round on this subject. Trust me if the Terminator was any where near how you describe it one would not be sitting in my garage. The problem is that there are a lot of Shelby enthusiast who buy into this without considering all the details and tend to dismiss aspects of the GT500 that may be critical. People who are a bit more detached from the GT do not share the universal acclaim that seems to be very prevalent here.

The reason I wrote this is because you are a very knowledgeable road racer yet for some reason you go out of your way to point out flaws in this car being it real or imagined which is something I don’t understand. As an engineer I realize there is a price to be paid for every design decision made and very few ever turn out to be “win win” and no design is exempt including the Shelby. I have no illusion regarding the flaws with the Terminator all of which can be correct and in the end results in a car that should be respected by anyone even if you drive a Lamborghini which my car is no stranger to and the driver will be a bit more leery of the next time he encounters one at a light.

No biggie Bruce. This is the only topic where you and I differ.

Be well :beer:

Russ:

With all of the things you've covered here I do not have time to reply as I'm leaving work shortly.

But I can assure you that you won't be disappointed with my reply.

Stay tuned!

:-D

 

[SlowSVT]

Russ: I can assure you that you won't be disappointed with my reply.

Stay tuned!

:-D

You mean to tell me you've been holding out on me all this time making me write all this stuff?

:burnout:

 

[ac427cobra]

Russ:

Grab a drink first!

Second, let me say that I enjoy the debates we have. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that if we were at the track together after a long day of running over Corvettes, the two of us would get along just fine quenching our thirsts over a few icy cold barley pops! :beer:

Now onto the business at hand: :read:

So I guess this means you’re sticking to your story (LOL)

Why shouldn't I?!?! It's a great story told well! :rolling:

IMO no Shelby owner should be describing the Terminator as being “porky” without looking at their own ride. That statement certainly raised an eyebrow.

Russ:

There is No Doubt you're a smart engineer, but today, for whatever reason your reading comprehension needs a little brushing up! ;-)

When I said:

"when the GT500 came out, although it was heavier than the Term, it managed it's porkiness much more impressively"

Isn't this CLEARLY describing BOTH cars as being porky? And in particular, addressing your concern, the GT500 as well? Please let me know how much more to the point I could have made that statement. :shrug:

I don’t know too many Terminator owners including myself who would describe the Terminator as a featherweight car…….then again it’s quite a bit lighter then the current crop of muscle cars coming out of Detroit. So that point is moot. All that go fast hardware added to the car comes at a price, something, you should know better than anybody.

Whether the car has sub-frames or not the flexi chassis does not seem to effect it’s handling as demonstrated by your Cobra R which will out handle a GT500 as well as a host of other cars. I have studied the chassis structure in detail and I don’t think many people who know where the problems lie better than me as you may find out in the near future.

As you well know, because I've explained to you numerous times before, my Cobra R that's stripped to the bone contains almost NONE of the factory suspension it came on. The only piece of factory suspension that remains on the car is the rear sway bar. That's it! It has a full 12 pt. cage, SFC's, matrix bracing AND it's 500# lighter than my full dress GT500. Of course the R is going to be faster. Weight on the track is a buzzkill.

You mean to tell me the Terminator is no longer a great car? What happened between then and now?

Russ again, I'm not sure if you read my post too fast or you're rushing your reply here, but I said this:

"The Term was and is a great car."

Clearly the Term still IS a great car because that is what I stated in my post.

That poor suspension you speak of on your Cobra R doesn’t seem to have affected it’s handling which Car&Driver described as “Corvette class handling”.

Again, my R contains almost none of it's original factory suspension as I stated previously. The Cobra R as delivered from the factory, had suspension specifications that were completely unique to that project. A vast majority of which were not rolled over to the Terminator project for obvious reasons.

Funny how the GT500 is mysteriously absent from your list of cars with “shortcomings”. Does that mean it doesn’t have any? It if doesn’t then congratulations they have finally engineered the perfect car. The guy who tuned the Cobra R chassis also tuned the chassis on the Terminator and SVT spent a lot of track time fine tuning the suspension.

Again I somehow think you missed the point where I CLEARLY stated:

"my 2007 Shelby GT500 (heavy), "

It was not missed. I called my GT500 heavy. I complain about it plenty! :cryying: Trust me!

There is no confusion at my end regarding your post. The perspective just seems to be a bit selective.

Perhaps after this review it may be more clear?oke:

You and I have gone round and round on this subject. Trust me if the Terminator was any where near how you describe it one would not be sitting in my garage.

There is No Doubt you are happy with your car. You should be. It's a great car!

The problem is that there are a lot of Shelby enthusiast who buy into this without considering all the details and tend to dismiss aspects of the GT500 that may be critical. People who are a bit more detached from the GT do not share the universal acclaim that seems to be very prevalent here.

If and when you ever get into an S-197 chassis you are going to understand exactly what all of us GT500 fans are raving about. Most of these people had New Edge Cobras and Terminators. They are blown away by this car. Until you experience it for yourself I'm just wasting my breath trying to explain it to you. (or keystrokes in this case)

The reason I wrote this is because you are a very knowledgeable road racer yet for some reason you go out of your way to point out flaws in this car being it real or imagined which is something I don’t understand. As an engineer I realize there is a price to be paid for every design decision made and very few ever turn out to be “win win” and no design is exempt including the Shelby.

SVT did a great job building the Terminator with what they had to work with. But, the platform and the suspension was long overdue for a major makeover.

I have no illusion regarding the flaws with the Terminator all of which can be correct and in the end results in a car that should be respected by anyone even if you drive a Lamborghini which my car is no stranger to and the driver will be a bit more leery of the next time he encounters one at a light.

No biggie Bruce. This is the only topic where you and I differ.

Be well :beer:

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[SlowSVT]

I thought you said I wouldn't be disappointed! Perhaps a word of encouragement for us Terminator drivers.

I suppose if we saw eye to eye on everything this place might be a bit less entertaining if nothing else. Valid points are made from both of us but the end result is we cancel each other out. BTW, I was not referring to your highly modified R which would not be very fair.

Bruce we could ping pong back and forth all day long. I think debating this over a 30 pack would be a better method of "communicating".

Gotta hit the 5 freeway now....... L8R

 

[ac427cobra]

I thought you said I wouldn't be disappointed! Perhaps a word of encouragement for us Terminator drivers.

I suppose if we saw eye to eye on everything this place might be a bit less entertaining if nothing else. Valid points are made from both of us but the end result is we cancel each other out. BTW, I was not referring to your highly modified R which would not be very fair.

Bruce we could ping pong back and forth all day long. I think debating this over a 30 pack would be a better method of "communicating".

Gotta hit the 5 freeway now....... L8R

Russ:

I must say, that's a pretty disappointing reply!

 

[01trublue cobra]

The new GT500 should come with a aluminum block to shed 85Lbs off the front end. A friend of mines here in San Diego, but the Ford GT aluminum block to save some weight.

 

[javierrflores]

op:keep it comming, I'll miss this tread when it dies!!!op:

agreed!!:beer: