API SM/SN certified engine oils, and why NOT to use them.

[mblgjr]

Bulldogger: Sees the light ;-)

However, don't get carried away and run a 15w. I'm only throwing the synthetic Rotella 5w-40 into the conversation. It's inexpensive, API SM rated and has a solid Zinc/Phosph. level (over 1,000).

Robertt305: Look beyond the label of "diesel". It's an OIL. It meets API SM and has to sustain high-heat and shear points. It also has higher levels of ZDDP compared to typical automotive oils. It's a cheap, off the shelf way to have your cake and eat it too (to a point). You get the durability of the base stock, combined with higher ZDDP.

Fact is the Motorcraft 5-50 shears to a 40wt. pretty quickly under extreme service. And it has a fast depleting supply of limited (borderline to start with) Zddp level.

For reference; this is just a VOA I found while searching just now. Not saying it's the best or anything; just a piece of data. I tend to shy away from Blackstone; but a lot of people use them.

http://home.earthlink.net/~alan.m.roberts/Images/voa_Rotella5W-40T6.jpg

FWIW I have an Amsoil account, but I don't run their oils.

I ran the Shell for a few changes (about 3k miles) under no-boost conditions in my 500. I've since swapped to Nippon Oil ENEOS 0w-50. I haven't sent it out for analysis yet, but I'm coming due a change so I'll have a VOA and UOA sometime after Christmas.

The ENEOS 0-50 is from Group IV/V base stocks. There's a lot of mixed emotions and reviews on this oil, but Nippon does mfg. the factory fill oil for Toyota. They also have some ties into F1 from what I've read in various places. I figure they can't be *horrible* at what they do (hopefully, haha!).

 

[Shaker1]

I'd like to know what these differences of parts per million over several thousand miles really translate to in terms of engine wear over the vehicles lifetime.

Posting a select few UOAs showing negligible wear is hardly proof of anything, except maybe OCD. This is starting to remind me on one of those infomercials.

 

[mobeydick]

I'd like to know what these differences of parts per million over several thousand miles really translate to in terms of engine wear over the vehicles lifetime.

Posting a select few UOAs showing negligible wear is hardly proof of anything, except maybe OCD. This is starting to remind me on one of those infomercials.

From what I read over at BTOG start to be concerned at about 100 to 300ppm.

 

[Ray Lucca]

This is getting interesting, and coming from the Terminator side...Finally...A couple of questions:
1. The specs and tests on the 5.4 we're all run with the "A" Spec Motorcraft 5W/50 Oil, which was dis-continued. I go to Cars/Coffee regularly and have been hanging with the Ford GT guys, as believe it or not, there are more of them than GT500's. Many of them have "hoarded" cases of the A Spec Black bottle M. Craft Oil, or run Redline. I know the "A" had at least a higher Zddp level. Anyone know when the change was made, and what the previous oil reports looked like??? Looking forward to seeing all of the new Oil reports coming up. For me, at least for now, I'm staying on spec oil [new car], and will go with the Redline next time. That oil report that listed many of the 5W/50's was eye opening, Redline clearly #1, with the Pennzoil #2??!! Troy, keep up the good work, I , and many of us appreciate it..
Let's discuss Oil Filters next...#1 Amsoil, Mobil 1, K/N, Ford Racing, Motorcraft... In order??? Motorcraft, Mobil 1, K/N being the most readily available?? Thanx!!

 

[vankuen]

So for a 2011 GT500 that uses 5w-50 (meaning 5 winter 50 weight?):

Ford Motorcraft (dealer oil changes), Castrol Syntec, Pennzoil, and etc = bad for engine and good for mpg and cat life in the long term. MPG being debatable because engines that wear prematurely generally don't perform efficiently and thus MPG would decrease.

Redline, Royal Purple, Amsoil = good for engine wear, not so much for mpg and cat life over the long term.

Does that about sum things up?

 

[Ray Lucca]

R.P. and Amsoil don't make a 5W/50, and maybe for good reason.
Redline does, and it's getting very good marks so far. Go back a few pages and read the posted report rating them all. The better oils apparently don't harm the Cats because of their oil base and process. Troy and others can explain that much better than I.

 

[vankuen]

Ok...Amsoil makes a 50 weight, but has it for a different winter temperature.

BUT that doesn't answer the question: does my summary give a proper assessment of the pissing match to date?

 

[apexchain]

Amsoil Oil Filters for sure.

This is getting interesting, and coming from the Terminator side...Finally...A couple of questions:
1. The specs and tests on the 5.4 we're all run with the "A" Spec Motorcraft 5W/50 Oil, which was dis-continued. I go to Cars/Coffee regularly and have been hanging with the Ford GT guys, as believe it or not, there are more of them than GT500's. Many of them have "hoarded" cases of the A Spec Black bottle M. Craft Oil, or run Redline. I know the "A" had at least a higher Zddp level. Anyone know when the change was made, and what the previous oil reports looked like??? Looking forward to seeing all of the new Oil reports coming up. For me, at least for now, I'm staying on spec oil [new car], and will go with the Redline next time. That oil report that listed many of the 5W/50's was eye opening, Redline clearly #1, with the Pennzoil #2??!! Troy, keep up the good work, I , and many of us appreciate it..
Let's discuss Oil Filters next...#1 Amsoil, Mobil 1, K/N, Ford Racing, Motorcraft... In order??? Motorcraft, Mobil 1, K/N being the most readily available?? Thanx!!

 

[6-Speed]

For me, at least for now, I'm staying on spec oil [new car], and will go with the Redline next time.

Probably a good idea ... Red Line bottle label warns that it's not a break-in oil and recommends 3000 miles before using it.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Amsoil Oil Filters for sure.

I agree 100%

Ok...Amsoil makes a 50 weight, but has it for a different winter temperature.

BUT that doesn't answer the question: does my summary give a proper assessment of the pissing match to date?

They only formulate a 20W-50, and I would not recommend it for use in below freezing temperatures. Thus far on my "approved" list is

Red Line 5W-50 (year round use - will probably shear to a 40 weight - waiting for UOA)
AMSOIL 10W-40 (year round use - will remain a 40 weight)
AMSOIL 20W-50 (summer use, best results in 32*F+ temperatures - will remain a 50 weight)
Royal Purple 10W-40 (year round use - will remain a 40 weight)

Probably a good idea ... Red Line bottle label warns that it's not a break-in oil and recommends 3000 miles before using it.

The OEM fill in my car was dumped at 2,000 miles. Some were hard miles at 150 mph+. I'm sure that was good enough.

:-D

 

[UnleashedBeast]

I've been re-reading the Mobil 1 Q & A on BITOG.

I especially love how they dance around the question about the elevated iron ppm their API SM PCMO have in most UOAs.

They try to get technical, but never once touch on the fact that their oil is the only big name doing it.

Mobil 1 Q & A

Click the link above, read the intro, then click "Read More"


They also chose to NOT include any questions about what base stocks were chosen in their formulations, even though the question was asked....more than once. For the record, Pennzoil openly admitted in their Q & A that all of their synthetics were group III. High five to Pennzoil.

 

[jrgoffin]

On another note, Mobil has a product guide that lists details that many of the other manufacturers won't divulge:

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

 

[UnleashedBeast]

On another note, Mobil has a product guide that lists details that many of the other manufacturers won't divulge:

http://www.mobil.com/usa-english/motoroil/files/mobil_1_product_guide.pdf

I like the ZDDP amounts listed, that's a plus, but two major specs are lacking on that spec sheet.

NOACK Volatility and HT/HS

Both of which make it easy for the trained eye to determine what base stock was used in the formulation. Since Mobil thinks that information is proprietary, they emit those two specs.

 

[jrgoffin]

I like the ZDDP amounts listed, that's a plus, but two major specs are lacking on that spec sheet.

NOACK Volatility and HT/HS

Both of which make it easy for the trained eye to determine what base stock was used in the formulation. Since Mobil thinks that information is proprietary, they emit those two specs.

Agreed. I use the high-mileage 5w30 (SL) in my Aviator for that reason (even though it only has 50,000 on it).

I'd like to find a definitive link that offers data that shows Mobil 1 is now made with a Base 3 stock (can't recall what the HTHS minimums are). Searching the internet, I get just as many hits that say they still use a Base 4! Funny what some consider "proprietary" and others don't!

Then again, many of the UOA's that I have found on M1 aren't too bad either...

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Interesting stuff to say the least, especially since I have been a Mobil 1 & Catrol user for years (might have to re-examine that)!

Haven't completely digested everything yet, but coincidentally, last months newsletter from Blackstone touches on the ZDDP issue:

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/News..._Diesel_Newsletter11_22_2010&utm_medium=email

Figured it is worth getting some commentary on this...

I wanted to touch on one more thing. That article talks about using aircraft oil in a V8 truck engine. This oil has no ZDDP and no ash contributing additives. One person commented that this was OK for a car engine if it's OK for an aircraft engine. Well, I disagree....and some posts on BITOG support my thoughts.

I think the constant referral to "airplane engines don't have ZDDP in their oil so why does any other engine" is misguided.
Airplane engine parts are made absolutely bulletproof, with only THE BEST quality materials with the best heat treating etc as per federal guidelines. If not they might FALL OUT OF THE SKY!
They are also very overengineered. I'm sure the tappet surfaces are very large for low pressure loading. They're also made out of the best metals with the best heat treating and best quality control possible. In addition, these bulletproof engines turn VERY low RPM's.
So what does this article prove?

You are spot on. Aircraft oils contain no ZDDP because it is an ash forming additive. One of the primary design goals of aviation oil is to not foul the plugs, as these engines burn a fair amount of oil. Foul the plugs, fall out of the sky. Different engines with different oils that have to meet completely different sets operating goals.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that an aircraft engine would last twice as long as they do now if they could run a modern, SL additive pack oil. Your car wouldn't make 200K on Aeroshell either. Aviation oils are for all practical purposes SA, SB at best. They are a decent base stock with an ashless dispersant, and not much else.

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Agreed. I use the high-mileage 5w30 (SL) in my Aviator for that reason (even though it only has 50,000 on it).

High Mileage Mobil 1 is on my approved list!

It's an API SL formulation, seal conditioners, and higher amounts of ZDDP.

High five for your wisdom! :beer:

I'd like to find a definitive link that offers data that shows Mobil 1 is now made with a Base 3 stock (can't recall what the HTHS minimums are). Searching the internet, I get just as many hits that say they still use a Base 4! Funny what some consider "proprietary" and others don't!

Then again, many of the UOA's that I have found on M1 aren't too bad either...

Me too....why can't they put it out there on the line and allow us to make informed decisions?

Not all Mobil 1 oils are disliked by me, only there "true" API SM formulations. When I use the word "true" I'm referring to oils like 5W-20, 5W-30, and 10W-30.

Their 0W-40 (for example) has much higher amounts of ZDDP, about 1100 ppm. I consider this grade to be more of an API SL formulation.

This is why you see great UOAs from Mobil 1 0W-40. It's great oil!

 

[jrgoffin]

High Mileage Mobil 1 is on my approved list!

It's an API SL formulation, seal conditioners, and higher amounts of ZDDP.

High five for your wisdom! :beer:

Hah, cool!! Maybe that HM 5w30 would even be a good choice in my 18,000 mile Cobra (or the 0w40):rockon:

Did actually dig on M1's site and notice that all the individual product data sheets list the HTHS numbers (it's 3.4 for the HM 5w30 for example). Maybe more good reasons to just stay away from the basic SM stuff anyway.

As for the Blackstone ZDDP article, wasn't in comlete agreement with it either, just thought it was coincidental to come up while the debate was raging! Did get a kick out of some of the comments regarding the "bullet-proof" aircraft engines - last one I flew had the engine crap out while turning short final I'll stick with the turbine engines anyway...

 

[6-Speed]

Found this on the API web site; it describes various specs for the various API Service categories SH, SJ, SL, SM and SN. It appears with regards to ZDDP, that Phosphorous (P) is the element that they want to limit in order to protect the CATs. It's interesting that the P limits only apply to certain SAE grade oils (e.g. 0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30) and is NR for other grades such as 5W-50 (NR means "not-required"). That's not to say that other grades can't limit P as well - they're just not required to do so to meet the service category. Here is how I interpret the Phosphorous spec for the various Service categories of oil:

SN (Resource Conserving): P = 600 ppm to 800 ppm

SM & SN: P = 600 ppm to 800 ppm (0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30); P > 600 ppm for all other grades

SL: Max P = 1000 ppm (0W-20, 5W-20, 0W-30, 5W-30, 10W-30); NR for others

SJ: Max P = 1000 ppm (0W-20, 5W-20, 5W-30, 10W-30); NR for others

SH: Max P = 1200 ppm (5W-30 & 10W-30); NR for 15W-40

http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/new/upload/1509techbull1complete.pdf

 

[UnleashedBeast]

Those grades are limited because those are the common passenger car lubricant grades. PCMO

Diesel oils fall under a different rule.

 

[jcthorne]

Those grades are limited because those are the common passenger car lubricant grades. PCMO

Diesel oils fall under a different rule.

So a diesel engine oil like Rotella T6 that has a dual certification like CI-4/SN does not have to meet the low ZDDP levels? Or is it the oil weight 5W-40 that gives it a pass?