ken dont you think you have a rather biased opinion due to the fact you are selling $10,000 turbo kits???
Rear Mount Turbo Setup
- Thread starter BV600
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ken dont you think you have a rather biased opinion due to the fact you are selling $10,000 turbo kits???
till someones kid sticks a finger in there lol, it is pretty cool looking!
I still wouldnt do it either...
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Ken has seen literally thousands of setups in his tuning career. I've personally seen some "ebay-specials" come into get tuned which are simply garbage.
If you've never tuned a car with low-quality parts, piping, fittings, electrical connections, crap-fuel systems, or just an overall bad quality install, you can't possibly understand all the "little" things that one will run into during the tuning process or down the road.
It's been my experience that many people will brag how much they "saved" in purchasing a cheap part, but will never tell you how much hell they went through making it work right.
Part of the reason why Ken's involvement in the TT setup/kit costs so much, is because they cut zero corners. They use quality materials, spend countless hours refining the tune, installation process...etc and delivers a turn-key/reliable unit. A 3k ebay-special kit isn't even comparable IMO. That in of itself is a true DIY kit.
There is nothing worse in the world is having someone show up to your shop, that work has been done by someone else, them or whomever, 3-4 times, its STILL not right, they want you to "fix" it or just "make it work with what they have"....
The TT kits that will be sold by Ken & crew are certainly not for everyone.
CPRsm
Active Member
Nah, I don't think so. Lot's of reasons not to run them back there. the exhaust is colder by the time it gets to the rear. Less work is put into the turbine when this happens, and why keeping heat in the exhaust on a turbo kit is important. If it was better I think many more people would do it. God knows it's much easier to fab up and install.
i understand what you are saying. i myself am a tuner. i myself have a "cheap ebay kit" on my car. it works fine.
trust me i have seen some cobbled together stuff come through my door.
i have also tuned MANY sts kits on both gm and ford cars and trucks with no issues what so ever. NON ZIP NOTTA.
all i was saying is somone that personally sells a $8500 turbo kit is OBVIOUSLY going to hate on a cheaper alternative. that is all. i know he said he ment no insult and there was non. and i myself mean no insult. just saying rear mounts work. no doubt about it. but they have downfalls like anything else.
I know 2 people with rear mount turbo kits. One on an 06 GTO and another on an 08 GT. Both were garbage, both had unbearable lag, both were a pain to get to run right, and both had horrible boost leak issues. Thanks but Ill stick with doing it right vs doing it twice.
IMHO rear mounts are for cars where you can't get 'em under the hood. That's no problem with these cars, so why bother? Not to mention getting caught out in the rain.
Hey, at least you can move the weight bias rearward with a rear mount, if that's what you need for the track..
Hey, at least you can move the weight bias rearward with a rear mount, if that's what you need for the track..
All in how it's done. Generally, the problem with rear mounts is people are just slapping this and that together. Reality is... When done right with some thought, engineering and science behind it; they WILL work.
Not as efficient as an under-hood, tubular turbo manifold setup; but still WILL work. It's all in what the customer wants.
I also laugh at how people have nothing but issues with boost leaks in a rear mount. Simple fix; v-band everything.
There's another answer to the bashing in this thread. Generally, the under-hood kits are far better designed and come with top of the line everything. Imagine if someone made an affordable rear mount kit but engineered it to be the best, with all the bells and whistles. Guess what... It would just simply WORK!
Not as efficient as an under-hood, tubular turbo manifold setup; but still WILL work. It's all in what the customer wants.
I also laugh at how people have nothing but issues with boost leaks in a rear mount. Simple fix; v-band everything.
There's another answer to the bashing in this thread. Generally, the under-hood kits are far better designed and come with top of the line everything. Imagine if someone made an affordable rear mount kit but engineered it to be the best, with all the bells and whistles. Guess what... It would just simply WORK!
If anyone tells you that a remote mount turbo is easier. They have never built one. You better have a water cooled tig and a bunch of rod. I have about 15 hours of tig welding in mine and its about half way done. It needs to be done right. If not you will not be happy with the results. STS kit is easy to install, but i nice designed, well built rear mount isn't. The air filter story is just that. Oil problems is a story also. If its done right you wont have any problems. Done right isn't cheap though. You'll need about 10K to get started and know how to tig or pay someone to do it for you.
The main draw back on the rear mount is turbo distance from engine. Rule #1 in designing a turbo system is to have the turbo as close to the engine as possible. Period. Hot exhaust gasses impart more energy to the turbine wheel than cooled gases. Period. Rear mounting a turbo should always be a last resort when space is just not available. (like in the S197 5.0 engine bay, lol)
Beyond that the real problem with rear mounts are all the extra parts needed to make them work right. oil return pumps, check valves, ect. ect., but it can be done right if the right parts are used in the right places.
Look where that air charger return pipe is running .......STS is junk that takes unacceptable short cuts.
...
Beyond that the real problem with rear mounts are all the extra parts needed to make them work right. oil return pumps, check valves, ect. ect., but it can be done right if the right parts are used in the right places.
Look where that air charger return pipe is running .......STS is junk that takes unacceptable short cuts.
...
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But how much of a difference in hot gases ? Very little and the only way it might make a difference is if your class racing. On the street you'll never loose enough power to matter if its built right. Last resort LMAO.
CPRsm
Active Member
Quite a bit is lost in hot gases. Right after the collector egt's can be 700ish. But at the tail pipe you can put your hand over the tail pipe without being burned. You can't put your hand at the end of a collector and do the same because of the excessive heat. Arbitrary numbers,...one cylinder "putt" from and engine my be 3 cubic feet at 700 degrees around idle. But at the back it's only 100-130, and only 1.5 cubic feet. These numbers will go up with rpm and load obviously. Now put that one putt thru the turbine at two different volumes. Let's say 3 cu/ft turns the turbo shaft 5 times, but the cooler smaller putt only spins it 2.5 times. Now you can see where spool becomes a problem. This is why we change AR housing sizes. The same turbine w a smaller housing will stretch the use of that same cylinder putt. You can with a rear mount use smaller tubing to increase velocity to try to over come some of these problems. ANY increase in tubing length takes more time to fill and pressurize, and become more of a restriction the longer it becomes. Rear mounts, have an awful lot of tubing to pressurize both ways. To the rear and back. This is so much a factor that companies have designed turbo engines from scratch so the exhaust exits the head in the center of the engine where you would normally see an intake. Now you see a header tubing instead LOL. It'll "work", but no my first choice. Or you can cheat like Tim :-D
What he said ^^^
It's not only heat but exhaust gas velocity slows dramatically from the headers to the mufflers. You lose a tremendous amount of energy. We are not talking 1-2 seconds faster, but we are talking 5 tenths and not just some "class" difference and you would notice a dramatic improvement in boost response
A hot turbo is a happy turbo. Laugh if you want, but it doesnt make what I said any less true. You can make a rear mount system work and work well, but it will never ever be as fast or as responsive or as trouble free as a front mount system with a gravity oil drain back to the engine. Period.
It's not only heat but exhaust gas velocity slows dramatically from the headers to the mufflers. You lose a tremendous amount of energy. We are not talking 1-2 seconds faster, but we are talking 5 tenths and not just some "class" difference and you would notice a dramatic improvement in boost response
A hot turbo is a happy turbo. Laugh if you want, but it doesnt make what I said any less true. You can make a rear mount system work and work well, but it will never ever be as fast or as responsive or as trouble free as a front mount system with a gravity oil drain back to the engine. Period.
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The problem with that set up is it would be easy to steal the turbos off that car...
How many rear mount or front turbo systems have you built, run and tuned ? CPRsm, Dustin i would never cheat. How dare you. :lol1:
CPRsm
Active Member
"It won't spool KEEEPTIN!!! (in Scottish accent)
"MORE NITROUS!!!" :burnout:
"MORE NITROUS!!!" :burnout:
You're right, I dont know sh*t about building one off turbo kits and my copy of Cork Bell's "Maximum Boost" on how to design and build a turbo kit is not ready to fall apart.
:burn:
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You're right, I dont know sh*t about building one off turbo kits and my copy of Cork Bell's "Maximum Boost" on how to design and build a turbo kit is not ready to fall apart.
:burn:
I never said anything about what you do or dont know. I just wanted to know your experience. From what i see. You have a very poorly designed single truck turbo system with with store bought shorty headers. I'm no expert, but there is more to it then just heat energy, A lot more. From what ive seen, many front mount turbos dont spool for shit. So whats the problem, they should have a bunch of heat right ?
I'm very much a turbo novice, however I'd make these points:
1) Ken B's integrity is top notch, yes he's got a competitive system to a rear mount, however he tunes all makes and models and I take his commentary at face value about his view on the rear set up.
2) How many factory cars come with turbos now? dozens? how many of those are rear mounts? I don't know of any (not saying there aren't any).
3) Nothing against STS - however if the rear mount was the "better" solution - why are so few kits designed that way?
1) Ken B's integrity is top notch, yes he's got a competitive system to a rear mount, however he tunes all makes and models and I take his commentary at face value about his view on the rear set up.
2) How many factory cars come with turbos now? dozens? how many of those are rear mounts? I don't know of any (not saying there aren't any).
3) Nothing against STS - however if the rear mount was the "better" solution - why are so few kits designed that way?
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