Conversation I had with service writers about PCM's and chips

[OverToad]

I can't reply as to whether or not this technology is unreliable or not. I'm just a car enthusiast, not an engineer (if this were so, would I be authoring such threads?).
After nursing my hangover this morning with a couple of bloody mary's, I slowly (S-L-O-W-L-Y) came to the conclusion that this flash isn't for me. I've allready paid my money for the chip, and even though I could sell it, that's throwing away money and reburns in the future for future mods (no, I didn't say more mods, did I? :cryying: ). This isn't to say this is a bad idea. I just don't think with all the factors involved with me that it's the right move.

So I've now seen this Predator mentioned several times. Is there any firm information on when it's going to be hitting the streets, and any word about prices? If it's six months down the road, that's fantastic, but I might as well chip my PCM now, get a new one later, and use the predator on that one. Or, for the money I've spent on the Predator, I could put into a PCM, so with free reburns, all I'm saving is some mail time. Plus, I've got an AutoTap scanner, so that added feature is one that I allready have.

Decisions decisions......

 

[APTEN]

I'm not being crude here, but this technology is actually quite unreliable, as the problem with in person form of EEC flashing, is that you can't turn it off, or uninstall it unless you go back to that dealer who initially flashed it (or find another dealer that uses the same product, which will be rare), which means either driving to him, or sending your pcm to him (some will even "lock" their tune). What happens if the tune actually doesn't perform right down the road? In the meantime, if your vehicle breaks, and you need to go to the dealer, you're SOL, unless you can wait through all the time that it takes to do the above mentioned process. The other way is to have someone with an NGS tool reflash your pcm back to factory spec, and that may be difficult to find.

With a unit like the Predator, when it becomes available soon for the Fords, you will be able to flash to a performance tune, and then back again to stock at will! Here's a list of what all it will do for the Fords:

- Screen Size: 8 line LCD backlist display
- Internet Tuning: Custom Files can be sent from your dealer via the internet which allows for future updates and customized programming
- Programming takes approx. 2 minutes on the Gas vehicles, and 15 seconds on the Diesels
- OBD-II diagnostic software. Will scan and read fault codes and their definitions, as well as erase the fault code, plus includes live data monitoring of various sensors:

Engine Load (calculated in %)
ECT (coolant temps in degrees F)
STFT Bank 1
LTFT Bank 1
STFT Bank 2
LTFT Bank 2
MAP
RPM
MPH
Spark (timing in degrees)
IAT (intake temp in degrees F)
MAF (lb/m)
TP Angle (%)
HO2S Bank 1 Sensor 1
HO2S Bank 1 Sensor 2
HO2S Bank 2 Sensor 1
HO2S Bank 2 Sensor 2
Knock Retard (in degrees)

- Revised Torque Management Settings for optimum performance
- User adjustability. Adjust your DiabloSport tuner's performance program:

a. Richen or lean fuel mixture +/- 5%
b. Advance or retard ignition timing +/- 10%
c. Raise and lower shift point rpm in 10 rpm increments for each gear
d. Raise and lower shift point mph in 1 mph increments for each gear
e. Increase or decrease shift firmness (+/- 25% and anywhere in between)
f. Reduce shift duration (time delay during gear change) (+/- 25% and anywhere in between)
g. Raise and lower rev limiter in 10 rpm increments for each gear
h. Correct speedometer for gear changes and/or tire sizes (will support ALL gear changes, and ALL tire/rim combinations)
i. Turn on cooling fans at lower temps in incremental steps of 1 degrees (for vehicles w/ factory equipped electric fans)
j. Adjust top-speed limiters

Naturally, C, D, E, and F will not apply to manuals, but all the rest will.

with all those specs, it sounds like your a dealer for diablo

It's not true that EEC flashing is unreliable. There are only two people who do it now, and neither of them have had problems with reliability. When you change the actual code in the EEC, it stays there. If anything it is more reliable than a physical chip connection. In fact, that diablo product you are talking about will flash the EEC in a very similar manner, but it will be reliable, right?

As far as needing a flash cleared, you are right. You can either send the EEC back, or take it to a dealership to have them clear it with an NGS or CardaQ. It will look to them like they are just reflashing the vehile for normal reasons, so I don't see how it could impact the warranty. There's even an updated code for the 03 cobras, so that could be an excuse to have it reflashed.

But the only reason you would need a flash cleared is so you could sell the car. You aren't going to have reliability problems with a flash, period. And if you are going the flash route, it may just be easy enough to buy a second EEC to have flashed. That way you have your performance "flashed" EEC, and your stock one. For people that don't want evidence of a chip left behind, that is really the only option right now.

The problem with those so-called tuner devices is that they don't actually let you tune. There is a list of a few parameters that you can change, but nothing nearly as powerful as real tuning. Most of what they do is just let you upload the stock manufaturers program and make minor tweaks. There are several spark tables within the EEC for each load vs rpm point. Those are necessary to properly tune the car. There are also several fuel tables, adaptive learning controls, and much more. They may be good for most cars to just make small adjustments, but when you have invested in a 500RWHP cobra you want to have everything done right!

Brian

 

[a94cobra]

Superchips also has a microtuner out to reflash the fords. They can do the regualr 4.6 right now. The Cobra version should be out soon. Not saying it has all the features or is better than a Predator, just mentioning that they all are finally making us a programmer instead of chip.

 

[03DOHC]

Originally posted by a94cobra
Superchips also has a microtuner out to reflash the fords. They can do the regualr 4.6 right now. The Cobra version should be out soon. Not saying it has all the features or is better than a Predator, just mentioning that they all are finally making us a programmer instead of chip.

Hopefully you'll be able to purchace and download a "tune" from a superchips or diablosport dealer and flash your computer. Now that would be sweeeeeeeeeetttttt!:burnout:

 

[VintagePorscheG]

I think it depends on how far you go. If you start with a good motor (no tick) and go with a 2.93 pulley (stock Lightning size) and a aftermarket exhaust and a chip and don't race it everywhere you go you will have a car that will outrun a 911 or Z06 and is totally streetable.

If you start getting smaller pulleys, running too lean, using N02 etc and race every day, you will break it.

 

[BOOOOST]

Originally posted by BrianH
with all those specs, it sounds like your a dealer for diablo

I'm touting the ability of a product, and Rick with Amazon will have access to this product, so I want everyone to understand that I'm not selling any products. Too often members get flagged as a dealer trying to undermine supporting vendor rules, because they are familiar with a product, or speak of the abilities of it.

It's not true that EEC flashing is unreliable.

As far as needing a flash cleared, you are right. You can either send the EEC back, or take it to a dealership to have them clear it with an NGS or CardaQ. It will look to them like they are just reflashing the vehile for normal reasons, so I don't see how it could impact the warranty. There's even an updated code for the 03 cobras, so that could be an excuse to have it reflashed.

Let me recant the word "unreliable". I misused it and should have stated it in a different manner. Flash tuning IS the most reliable and best way of tuning PERIOD! My gruff with the "in-person" flash tuning is that you must either return to that tuner who flashed you, or you must go to the dealer to have your vehicle reflashed. Word of caution, any alterations to the factory pcm code *can* be picked up by an NGS tool, so it would always be wise to have your pcm flashed back to factory specs before a trip to the dealer, then again, as you said, most will not realize this and just reflash it to factory specs ;-)

But the only reason you would need a flash cleared is so you could sell the car.

Service work definitely qualifies for this as well. Or those days you actually do not want an aftermarket tune in your vehicle (yes, this happens a lot).

And if you are going the flash route, it may just be easy enough to buy a second EEC to have flashed. That way you have your performance "flashed" EEC, and your stock one. For people that don't want evidence of a chip left behind, that is really the only option right now.

Then why not buy a chip? An EEC does cost $250 to $300, plus a core charge of $100. Either way you'll still need a locksmith, or someone with an NGS tool to program the PATS system each time you swap the pcm out.

The problem with those so-called tuner devices is that they don't actually let you tune. There is a list of a few parameters that you can change, but nothing nearly as powerful as real tuning. Most of what they do is just let you upload the stock manufaturers program and make minor tweaks.

That is actually how it is with the Hypertech and Superchips, currently, so there is definite validity behind that statement, BUT the Predator actually lets the tuner place whichever program they want onto it, just like they can with a chip.

There are several spark tables within the EEC for each load vs rpm point. Those are necessary to properly tune the car. There are also several fuel tables, adaptive learning controls, and much more. They may be good for most cars to just make small adjustments, but when you have invested in a 500RWHP cobra you want to have everything done right!

You're absolutely right! And the Predator can do this just like a chip can, though. Also, a DiabloSport dealer can also use the internet to send their client a new file, instead of having to send the chip back and forth, or instead of having to drive to and fro to get a different pcm flash. The customer uses a serial cable, a power adapter, and a small DiabloSport transfer program to allow interface with their PC and their Predator. This is being done every day on the GM vehicles now. The Predator is the ONLY handheld tuning device that allows this. The others do not, as they will still have to be sent back in to be programmed like a chip.

Brian, I respect your intelligence and your post. Please do not look at mine as something that is trying to contradict your statements. I'm only giving truthful, legimitate, valid information on the abilities of the Predator. Hopefully, you will be using this programmer for your flash programming so your clients can take a better advantage of it, as I realize your company's skills are top notch.

 

[03DOHC]

Originally posted by BNASPLT
.......You're absolutely right! And the Predator can do this just like a chip can, though. Also, a DiabloSport dealer can also use the internet to send their client a new file, instead of having to send the chip back and forth, or instead of having to drive to and fro to get a different pcm flash. The customer uses a serial cable, a power adapter, and a small DiabloSport transfer program to allow interface with their PC and their Predator. This is being done every day on the GM vehicles now. The Predator is the ONLY handheld tuning device that allows this. The others do not, as they will still have to be sent back in to be programmed like a chip.....

NOW THAT'S THE TICKET! Do you have a general idea of when this will be made available?

 

[JeffsLightning]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by BNASPLT
.......You're absolutely right! And the Predator can do this just like a chip can, though. Also, a DiabloSport dealer can also use the internet to send their client a new file, instead of having to send the chip back and forth, or instead of having to drive to and fro to get a different pcm flash. The customer uses a serial cable, a power adapter, and a small DiabloSport transfer program to allow interface with their PC and their Predator. This is being done every day on the GM vehicles now. The Predator is the ONLY handheld tuning device that allows this. The others do not, as they will still have to be sent back in to be programmed like a chip.....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I want to be first in line:thumbsup: for that Predator... I don't think there is/will be anybody in this area capable of reflashing my pcm for maximum performance for the mods I have....Although it looks like BrianH is only a few hundred miles away and I could go there

 

[APTEN]

dang, I just typed a full page and I lost it. Guess someone ate my cookie before I finished typing the resonse!

anyways, I agree with most of what BNA said. I also respect the way he delivered the info (without flame).

My lost reply had more indepth explinations of PATS, how it works, and how I can disable it. I think I could come up with "performance flahed" eecs for around $350 to offset the cost of the alternative. There are ways I can program two different EEC's to run three PATS keys. It's pretty complicated though, and I'm a little tired now to retype it at this time

The diablo programmer sounds neat. The only concern I would have is how tuners would react to sending files over the internet. By removing the physical product, it would be easy to copy the file and load it on everyone's car. It's food for thought, but I am sure Diablo will answer that question.

 

[BOOOOST]

Originally posted by BrianH
dang, I just typed a full page and I lost it. Guess someone ate my cookie before I finished typing the resonse!

COOKIE MONSTER!

anyways, I agree with most of what BNA said. I also respect the way he delivered the info (without flame).

:thumbsup:

My lost reply had more indepth explinations of PATS, how it works, and how I can disable it. I think I could come up with "performance flahed" eecs for around $350 to offset the cost of the alternative. There are ways I can program two different EEC's to run three PATS keys. It's pretty complicated though, and I'm a little tired now to retype it at this time

I'm pretty sure I know what's going on here, but I'd definitely be interested in that detailed post later, or you could email it, if you wouldn't mind ;-) (thanks in advance)

The diablo programmer sounds neat. The only concern I would have is how tuners would react to sending files over the internet. By removing the physical product, it would be easy to copy the file and load it on everyone's car. It's food for thought, but I am sure Diablo will answer that question.

To give you an example of what's actually happening, the Predator marry's itself to the vehicle upon intial read and flash. All files must contain the customer's VIN# and Tool ID#, of which the customer gives to the dealer, or their dealer already has the information. The software the customer uses will also verify this. If the customer tries to program their friend's vehicle, it will state it is locked, and naturally, if they send their file to their "buddy", it will be useless for him. Any file that the customer requests is modified from their tune read (they upload their read to their dealer, and then the changes are made and sent back). There's a lot more to it than that, and explaining it all would take pages, but that's the simple answer for the majority of inquiring minds :-D

 

[slythetove]

Predator?

When when when?!?!

Any ideas / guesstimates on cost?

 

[03DOHC]

Originally posted by BNASPLT
To give you an example of what's actually happening, the Predator marry's itself to the vehicle upon intial read and flash. All files must contain the customer's VIN# and Tool ID#, of which the customer gives to the dealer, or their dealer already has the information. The software the customer uses will also verify this. If the customer tries to program their friend's vehicle, it will state it is locked, and naturally, if they send their file to their "buddy", it will be useless for him, and actually even if it did allow sharing that would be quite dangerous, as any file that the customer requests is modified from their tune read (they upload their read to their dealer, and then the changes are made and sent back). There's a lot more to it than that, and explaining it all would take pages, but that's the simple answer for the majority of inquiring minds :-D

So, it looks like they have the copyright thing all worked out. And, it seems you know more about this than every person here. When are you going to share the detals, like when it'll be released and how much it'll cost?

I think there are quite a few people here that would buy that thing in the blink of an eye. I'll be the first in line.

 

[BOOOOST]

It's available now for 99+ GM V8's (nearly all). It will be available for the Duramax GM and Ford Powerstrokes within 2 weeks. The Predator for the gas Ford is being developed now and should become available within 3 months.

Pricing is $495 MSRP on gas units, and $695 MSRP on diesel units. Each dealer will set their pricing based off of MSRP, so expect them to sell out the door for $425 and $595, respectively.

 

[03DOHC]

How do I sign up for Beta testing?;-)

 

[APTEN]

okay it's later

Here's the way to get around PATS when running a second EEC.

1) I can just turn pats off. The only bad part is that we would be bypassing an anti-theft system. I've had to do it for people swapping 99+ motors and EECs in pre-99 vehicles.

2) Here's how you can do two pats EEC's with pats enabled
I program a spare EEC for the customer, and they send me one of their original keys and a new pats ket that they have not used. That way they still have one key to use on their car. I flash that EEC with the performance program and program in the two PATS keys i have (one new one, and one of the customer's original keys). Then when they install the extra EEC in the vehicle, they go thru the programming sequence to setup their other pats key. So now you have two EEC's and three keys that all work together. It is a bit of a PITA, so the thrid option is everyone can just move to St. Louis.


I understand how the predator is supposed to work, let me give you an extention of what I meant. Let's say that everyone buys their own predator unit, but they want to run someone else's program (fordchip, JDM, CMS, Apten, etc). That tuner company would have to give them the actual tuner file to load up in the predator. If I sent someone an actual file, it would be very easy for them to post it on public forums or e-mail it to others. Sure most files aren't compatible between different vehicle catch codes, but there are many cases where they are the same.


still sounds like a good product though, and I'm sure that will all be worked out!

Brian

 

[BOOOOST]

If you are in FL, and near Boca Raton and Delray Beach, then DiabloSport will need beta testers. At least 2 vehicles for each box code available will be needed, although some box codes will be so similar that they will not require *all* of them to be vehicle tested in the beta program.

 

[BOOOOST]

Brian, most definitely, if the allowing of non-DiabloSport dealers to use the Predator for flashing of their own tuning software should ever happen, and *internet* programming capabilities are included (as it may not be for non-DiabloSport dealers :shrug: ), then it will surely have restrictions such as the VIN locking and Serial#/Tool ID check, so those companies files can't be stolen and manipulated. Currently, the file is encrypted both ways (upload and download) with the tune file and customer's VIN and tool serial #'s, and only Revolution can read them, as I'm sure you realize. I would hope that other tuning companies encrypt their files as well.

 

[JeffsLightning]

BrianH if I brought a new PCM to the WFC this year could you hook me up to an awesome tune for my 01 L? Like I said before I live a couple of hundre miles away..Let me know your thoughts on this.. Thanks

 

[APTEN]

Jeff, I will be doing a lot of tuning that weekend for travelers, so just let me know a month in advance so I can make space for you on the dyno.

I also checked, I can get 03 Cobra PCM's for $225 brand new. So I could sent out a flashed PCM with the performance program already on it for less than $450.

BNA, I found out more information on the predator, hopefully this will help out.

The predator won't be out in a few months, probably not for a longer while. They still have a lot of work to go before they are ready to sell. They are still resolving issues with the GM unit that has already been released.

On top of that, you won't be able to do any real modifications with the predator. You will be able to change spark at only a few points, only chage fuel like WOT multipliers, and have very minimal control over everything else. This won't be a vehicle to really tune your vehicle. You will only be able to upload the generic diablo files and make a few small changes to that. On top of that, you can't upload your own file to the predator. The only file it will accept is a file encrypted by diablo. That means after you pay for the unit, you will have to turn around and pay even more for a custom file for your vehicle. Sure they can send it to you over the internet, but it's a lot of money to pay for a device, then pay even more to get custom files from them. That could easily be $600 just for a tune, and you don't even get dyno time or a chart for that kind of money.

I don't mean to bad mouth it. I was getting my hopes up, but it looks like this device is very similar in functionality to the superchips "power programmers" and such.

Brian

 

[OverToad]

Brian would be closer to the inner-workings of the tuner world, so this could just be marketing, but here's a reply I just got from DiabloSport regarding the Predator:

"The Predator will be available in the next few weeks, maybe a month, for
mustang, as well as other applications. Please keep an eye on the web site
for release dates.

Nick Spinelli
Diablosport Sales Manager
(561)908-0050 Ext #203
(561)908-0051 Fax
[email protected]"