Heel/Toe shifting question

[99COBRA2881]

I've had to re-bend the gas pedal after a few sessions seems the red mist migrated to my right foot and attempted to press the pedal through the floor.

Easy fix. I bend it back and remember not to press so damn hard next time! I remind myself to drive smooth while on track. Which to me means, grasp the steering wheel loosely in both hands and press the pedal with only enough effort to see WOT. Anytime the pedal is bent I know I was getting too aggressive!!

I would use a SnapOn Scan tool to verify TPS position with that throttle stop to ensure that WOT is being attained.

As long as the power is being applied smoothly there should be no threat of damaging the butterflies. Drag racing I could see this (maybe), but in open tracking the pedal should be gradually pushed to the floor out of the corner.

 

[brkntrxn]

As long as the power is being applied smoothly there should be no threat of damaging the butterflies. Drag racing I could see this (maybe), but in open tracking the pedal should be gradually pushed to the floor out of the corner.

Very true, what I was envisioning was hyperextension of the throttle body linkages. Bad phrasing on my part... or a Freudian slip from my drag racing exploits.

 

[racebronco2]

^^^^^throttle stop, is that help prevent you from pushing too hard on the throttle and over-revving? Or, is that an easy way just to push the throttle down as fast as you can knowing that it won't over-rev? I have never seen that.^^^^^^^^^^^

Once the gas pedal is raised with the spacer between the throttle cable and gas pedal i found out after a couple of days that the pedal bent because there was nothing to keep it off the floor. Using an 1/2 spacer raises the gas pedal up 1/2 or so but also raises it above the floor pan. The throttle stop is only to keep the pedal from bending.

 

[SVTkel]

mustang pedals just suck
better have good flexibility in your ankles otherwise your f%%%ed pretty much
i heel toe my daily corolla pos with ease and it still takes a little thinking to twist my foot enough to do it on a stang

Very true. I find it much easier to do in my Ranger than the CObra.

 

[Force4.6]

I have just starting using the heel/toe, it did make a difference with how you exit the corners. The way I was taught was to brake with the ball of your foot and then roll your foot onto the throttle. The Simpson shoes sure make it a hell of a lot easier though. I can't pull it off all the time but it will get easier with time.

 

[wheelhopper]

This sure looks complicated. I think I will try it out in the garage, car not running of course, to see how my feet work with the stock pedal arrangement. Then mod from there. It does feel like the brake and gas pedal are far apart for an easy heel/toe procedure.

Thanks for all the good info so far.

 

[ac427cobra]

This sure looks complicated. I think I will try it out in the garage, car not running of course, to see how my feet work with the stock pedal arrangement. Then mod from there. It does feel like the brake and gas pedal are far apart for an easy heel/toe procedure.

Thanks for all the good info so far.

You are correct, the pedals are pretty far apart. When I put my aftermarket pedal covers on, I cheated the brake pedal cover to the right and the gas to the left. Now with my adjustable throttle cable adjuster I have infinite adjustment of gas pedal height. That eased a lot of the pain learning to H/T.

You also have to remember you're pretty hard on the brake pedal when you H/T the pedals. Having a driving shoe with a soft sole gives you a better feel of the placement of your foot. When I started, it was a pretty crude exercise. But having done it for so long, it comes naturally to me now. I can even H/T my SHO that also has terrible pedal placement and height and I've done nothing to it to improve it.

:thumbsup::coolman::beer:

 

[gcassidy]

Doug, have your car running, just not in gear. It can make a difference in how far down the brake pedal goes. Plus sounds better.

 

[SVTkel]

Also take note that it may be easier to offset your foot placement on the brake pedal - which makes it easier to reach the gas pedal.

 

[Ryan]

I don't know how easy of a swap it is, but the SVO pedals are awesome for heal/toe.

 

[MFE]

Bear in mind that "heel & toe" is a technique for matching revs between the engine and the lower gear. We have a tendency borne of history and habit, but NOT usually of necessity, of zinging high-rev downshifts in the braking zone.

Thus the biggest problem experienced by people who try to heel & toe but haven't got the hang of it yet is they still insist on downshifting prior to corner entry, and they either slip the clutch out and fry it over time, or let it out quickly and really shock the whole car out of balance and break the rear tires loose as they get subjected to engine braking.

So...until you have it figured out, which does take some time, forget all about downshifting until just before you finally release the brakes for a corner, or even after you've released them but before you're about to go to power. Right then, the revs are closely matched and the car will take the lower gear with no muss, no fuss, no chassis upset, no grinding gears, and barely a second thought. All you're really missing is the gee-whiz sounds of a zinging downshift. And the benefit is, you get to focus all your finite mental capacity on managing your braking and your corner entry, which is arguably the time when the car is the least stable and most likely to get out of shape, rather than devoting mental bandwidth to something that's more likely as not to screw you up.

 

[TXPD]

^^^^^^^^^^^^How did you raise your accel pedal 1/2 inch?

Thanks.

Yea, we raised the throttle pedal on my Cobra R and lenthened the brake pedal as well. The throttle was so low that when the brake was depressed I was still having trouble hitting it with the outside of my foot. I roll my foot as well rather than use my heel.

 

[95PGTTech]

I've talked to several several WINNING racers that don't feel the need to heal toe. The way I understood it is that it is a skill you need to learn if you ever plan on driving a racecar with a trans that has straight cut gears with no synchros. Some people say you need to heal toe a stock tranny because its easier on the synchros and others say you will have to replace them anyways and don't worry about it.

From my on-track experience, I would agree with the statement about you probably aren't protecting anything on a modern transmission other than the clutch a bit. I would agree, however, with some other people here who have posted that the real purpose is to keep the rear of the car in check and not wiggling all over the place under braking. This was most apparent to me when hotlapping Myrtle Beach Speedway. Coming into a banked (about 15 degrees) corner (it's a circle track) doing about 80mph and having to go down to around 30mph (they brought the cones in real low and tight to keep speeds down for the newer drivers), the whole car wants to go highside on you and it's constantly pulling you up. Under braking, it's obviously even worse, and the body is rolling to the outside pretty badly. When you push the clutch in, it seems to take away a lot of that roll for a split second because (I think) you're disconnecting the body from the drivetrain. As soon as you slip the clutch to the next lowest gear (about a half second, if that), the bodyroll comes back on strong and since, under braking, most of your weight is shifted to the front, the rear is really light and gets ALL over the place. I'm no pyshics major, and I don't have nearly the on-track time that some members do here, but that's the best seat of the pants dummy explanation I can give of what it feels like is going on.

I don't know how easy of a swap it is, but the SVO pedals are awesome for heal/toe.

more information please





Heel-toe is a skill I really want to learn as well - I currently have been toying with it with the method described in here of heel (or more the middle arch section) of foot on brake pedal and toe on the upper half of gas pedal, but it's awkward and difficult. Putting that video on my tuning laptop and playing it in-car while trying it in the driveway in the car off gives me these conclusions:

1) the clutch pedal is way too high - MM makes a kit for this
2) the brake and gas pedal should be equal levels, they are not
3) the whole seating position is too far to the left, making the pedals to the right. in the video, if you slow it down, his seat seems to put him in a position where if he puts his leg straight out, it rests exactly on the gas pedal. when I unbolted the seat and moved it like that, WOW it's actually possible to make that move. the stock pedal/seat position are already making you reach to the right, so doing it like he's doing is impossible for someone with my apparently limited flexibility.

I'm using a Sparco seat by the way, the bolsters are a lot higher than the stock one, so I can't just shift in my seat. Something will have to be addressed about these pedals.

 

[Ryan]

95PGTTech - Like I said, I don't know the work involved but the SVO pedals are closing together to aid in heel/toe.

 

[95PGTTech]

I meant what did you mean by SVO. The 84-86? I doubt it would work for my fat ass SN95 then

Foxbody guys might take notice though. But the road racers on here who read a lot and post next to never probably already know that info.

 

[gcassidy]

Bear in mind that "heel & toe" is a technique for matching revs between the engine and the lower gear. We have a tendency borne of history and habit, but NOT usually of necessity, of zinging high-rev downshifts in the braking zone.

Thus the biggest problem experienced by people who try to heel & toe but haven't got the hang of it yet is they still insist on downshifting prior to corner entry, and they either slip the clutch out and fry it over time, or let it out quickly and really shock the whole car out of balance and break the rear tires loose as they get subjected to engine braking.

So...until you have it figured out, which does take some time, forget all about downshifting until just before you finally release the brakes for a corner, or even after you've released them but before you're about to go to power. Right then, the revs are closely matched and the car will take the lower gear with no muss, no fuss, no chassis upset, no grinding gears, and barely a second thought. All you're really missing is the gee-whiz sounds of a zinging downshift. And the benefit is, you get to focus all your finite mental capacity on managing your braking and your corner entry, which is arguably the time when the car is the least stable and most likely to get out of shape, rather than devoting mental bandwidth to something that's more likely as not to screw you up.

Well said. That is the tricky part, using the technique for it's proper purpose, which is harder to practice on the street. At our last NASA, I was working with an instructor I respect to get the clutch release right when I was letting off my trail braking, and there was really only one urn (#1-Summit main) where I could really polish the technique. But when you get it, it's as enjoyable as apexing a turn just right. Brings a smile to your face.
Next year, more consistency.

 

[Ryan]

I meant what did you mean by SVO. The 84-86?

Yup.

 

[FIRESUIT FRANK]

I personally learned by watching those who know and use heel/toe. For example, watching old walter rohl films on youtube and some other misc. in car vids on youtube. I also road with my buddy, who is a mustang racer, and listened to what it supposed to sound like and get the rythym of it. Then I just tried it on empty streets, off ramps, and parking lots till I felt comfortable with it. Then I went to the track, put a lower rev limiter pill in the coupe, and went for it. Worked out great and the more I use it/the smoother I get.

 

[MFE]

2nd video here "footbox video" is really good at showing the real-time technique. He's also double-clutching but that's beside the point, the real point is what he's doing with his right foot and the shifter.

http://www.teamsmr.com/html/videos.html

Here are some articles

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.shtml
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html

 

[BlackBolt9]

2nd video here "footbox video" is really good at showing the real-time technique. He's also double-clutching but that's beside the point, the real point is what he's doing with his right foot and the shifter.

http://www.teamsmr.com/html/videos.html

Here are some articles

http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/howto/articles/45792/article.html
http://www.turnfast.com/tech_driving/driving_heeltoe.shtml
http://www.nasaproracing.com/hpde/heelandtoe.html

Silly question, but what is the purpose of double clutching only when downshifting? Is that just to aid the synchos while heal-toeing? I just didn't understand why he would do it for down shifting but not upshifting. Figured I might be missing something :shrug: