Kenne bell competition dual boost-a-pump makes 1020 rwhp (1200ehp)
- Thread starter Kenne Bell
- Start date
don't give up now, there is still some potential(am i stoking the coals enough?)!
Hey Jim, I have a little news flash for ya....The 80lb injectors will not support 1000rwhp with a blower. Run that thing down the track and you will be making popcorn. It's just not safe. If it was I'm pretty sure the EVO car you speak of would not be upgrading the fuel system and injectors if your statement was true. If your so sure it's not a bandaid why don't you offer to buy the guy a motor if it pops? Just a thought?? I'm not knocking your boost-a-pump in anyway, but please don't mislead the general public that takes what the vendors say for gospel. I'm quite sure it works well for most, but the people looking for all out crazy power a full return style fuel system and larger injectors are required. IMO. But what do I know...my car is slow and doesn't make any power....oh yeah and Jon Lund didn't tune it. oh yeah and EVO didn't build it.
You and Andy better watch your kidneys tonight. If I catch you slipping they're gonna find the both of you at the Peabody on ice and me on a plane to South America with your kidneys at 10k a pop.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS Jim and Ken!
Your favorite "Pump Person" :rockon:
Jared. This is the first time that I remember you warning ME. It’s usually the other way around-me responding to your BIG RED B.S. misleading BANNERS about KB.
Well here we go again!
You are also obviously confused or misinformed about fuel pressure-among other tuning parameters. That explains why you don’t tune your own vehicles. Fortunately, you have Jon Lund. And if you were capable of tunning, you lack a dyno, data logging, etc. etc.
That would be impressive if it were true that all you needed was a BAP for 1000RWHP But why can’t you tell the real story.
Jared, can you read? Check our website http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/fuelpumptech.pdf
We’ve told the “real story” for years but you apparently are not capable of understanding it.
We clearly state up to “1000 engine HP”-not RWHP. Do you know the difference? 1000EHP=850RWHP, not 1000RWHP. We said the Evolution car made 1020RWHP (1020-850=170HP/850HP=+20% safety factor!) Get it Jared? We claim 850RWHP and the BAP produces 1020-with a safety factor. Do you like that fact?
Why not buy a Dyno and get educated. It might help your Shelby GT500-the one with the laughable embarrassing dyno numbers! You wont need our BAP on your car. It supplies too much fuel for a car that can’t make 800RWHP.
You know. How the tuner had to command 60psi of BASE pressure. You’re technically pathetic. Stick to your BIG RED banners, product hawking and reselling products manufactured by others.
Jon Lund is right. You don’t even understand DELTA pressure. You have NO concept of tuning or you wouldn’t make such a ridiculous statement.
Over the last 10 years, Kenne Bell has sold thousands of kits-many of them Shelby’s with 80-95psi-with no problem whatsoever. Maxed out at 65psi? What are you saying? Don’t you realize that reducing fuel pressure with a larger injector will also decrease duty cycle. Yes, there’s MORE HP in that 1020RWHP car with the $449 KB BAP and larger injectors. Post up your 1300HP tests. We never claimed 1020RWHP. Get it?
Why don’t you post up your 1300HP tests-or are you guessing again? I hear there’s a “3 pump” car being tuned that makes a mere 775RWHP and the Fore 3 Pumps are 87%. Not much left is there? Think it can lay down 1020 without LEANING OUT? When it doesn’t support 1020, dump the 3 pumps for an FRP M9407 or a Shelby dual pump with a BAP.
I have a question. Do you believe the 3 pump with those rails, larger lines, fittings wiring , etc can match the Competition Dual BAP with Shelby Dual’s, stock lines and rails on a Shelby? Why don’t we do a comparison. Let Jon Lund do the test. He’s recognized as the best Shelby tuner? Might be embarrassing if the 3 pump doesn’t......!
How did the “secret” (Viper) return style pumps work out for you? You know-the ones that Lethal openly claimed would make 800RWHP and match the KB BAP with stock Shelby pumps. How’s that working for you? Did you learn the difference between return style and returnless pumps?
Oh, now the car is running a “version” of the “pump people’s” triple power system, why is that? A “version” or a “vision”? The car isn’t even running a Shelby RETURNLESS SYSTEM! Jared, it’s a RETURN SYSTEM with return lines, regulator, special injector driver box and 160lb injectors-a $3000 system excluding labor. It is not your system.
One thing you’re no doubt unaware of-160lb injectors can run at a LOWER pressure and LESS duty cycle. So the BAP system is capable of MORE HP at this lower pressure, also.
What if this $3000.00 “Frankenstein 3 pump” system doesn’t match the $449 BOOST-A-PUMP with the 80lb injectors-or 160lb injectors. You don’t really know, because Lethal lacks the test equipment to do comparisons. Right?
It’s always good to leave out the facts, I guess.
Perhaps for someone like you who relies on theory, opinions and “testing by others”. See what happens when you can’t or won’t invest in your own test equipment?
Again, we never claimed over 1000EHP. The Evolution “example” mentioned computes to 1200 HP. Isn’t 1200HP 20% more than 1000? Do the math Jared-if you can. We claim 1000EHP. Evolution made 1020RWHP or 1200EHP. Aren’t those the facts?
So lean it was absolutely NOT safe to run? The car didn’t make anymore power because it was out of fuel.
O.K., it was lean or marginal with the 80's. But, LOWER THE FUEL PRESSURE with LARGER 160LB INJECTORS and watch the duty cycle drop (basic fuel pump curves). In checking with Evolution Performance, that is exactly what they’ve done-160's. Hmm. So-the car could make more power with the BAP and 160's. Interesting, isn’t it.
The more you babble, the better the BAP looks. Could it possibly match or exceed the $3000 3 pump. C’mon. Let’s test them back to back. BAP with Stock Shelby 2 pumps, lines and rails vs 2 pump and 3 pump.
We keep telling you to check out our PDF files and gain some knowledge instead of making a fool of yourself.
One more point.
Kenne Bell never claimed the 3 pump was incapable of pumping large amounts of fuel. We merely asked for some Lethal comparisons. No response to date. Having a problem with guessing at it? Get a fuel flow bench and let’s compare. Why not get a magazine to test the Shelby GT500 with...
1.KB Competition BAP and stock Shelby pumps.
2.Fore 2 pump
3.Fore 3 pump
Let’s make 900RWHP and compare the pump duty cycles. Think your expensive “2 pump” will match or beat the BAP?
Evolution has agreed to do the comparison tests. 5.0 Mustang or Muscle Mustangs & Fast Fords can supervise the test and publish the results and.....FACTS.
How about it Jared? Don’t back out now, we are about to settle this once and for all. We already know how the test will come out.
Your favorite “pump person.”?
First of all, you are not my favorite “pump person”. You aren’t even on the list. There are numerous people who I respect that understand fuel pumps. You are not one of them or you wouldn’t be embarrassing yourself with this misleading B.S. You work out of a shed or a storage unit (no dyno, no fuel flow bench, no air flow bench etc. etc). Word is you do have a screw driver and a crescent wrench in the facility.
I do however like discussing the issues with you. The last time we sparred, BAP sales increased 23%-and going up.
Thanks! You too have a great holiday.
Jim Bell
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Van@RevanRacing
Active Member
"We all need somebody to lean on, Lean on me, when you're not strong"
LMAO Lund Racing FTW!!!
Jim,
That was not Jared that wrote that reply, that was myself, Derek Perez.
I would like to touch on something that Tony (thebull) brought up. I'm sure you know that turbo's require less pump and injector duty cycle due to their lower parasitic loss versus any blower, and running a car on the dyno is different than running the car with REAL load on the street. Even at 1000 rwhp (what matters), do you really think that turbo car would not max out the pumps and injectors when making a 4th gear pull on the street with how it was tuned with your Competition BAP? With that being said, the blower with it's higher parasitic loss of HP would actually require MORE fuel (pump and injector duty cycle) to make less power, so 1000 rwhp will not happen with a blower like it did with the turbo car. As for the turbo car again, if there was still more fuel volume to be had with the stock pumps and the Comp. BAP with just the swap to 160 lb injectors, why didn't Evo just swap to the 160's? I mean, 160's are a lot cheaper than a $1,900 triple return fuel system that Lethal Performance pioneered, so why not go that route? I don't think we need a .pdf file to explain that one ;-)
The fact of the matter is, the BAP has it's place for someone on a budget with a bolt on street car. When it comes to making big power, stock pumps and lines with a high output guitar amplifier just isn't going to cut it. If all anyone really needed was just a BAP for 1000 engine HP, why don't any of the NMRA or NMCA racers just stick with stock lines, pumps with a BAP? Hmmm, I don't think we need a .pdf explanation for that one either :bored:
The response below is in Jared's own words as he is at PRI, enjoy :thumbsup:
Yes we are fortunate to have Jon tune for us as we are not tuners. In the same way you're lucky to have HPS in sweden design and manufacturer those superchargers that you label and sell under the name Kenne Bell.
Wow.. How shocking. You pulled out one of your BS PDF files. As if we had no idea that was coming. Here's another PDF which you should read carefully. It pretty much sums things up.
INSERT. Triple pump system --->BAP.
Right. Like I have any interest in working on cars. You know our business from day one is to distribute parts. The same reason we didn't "qualify" to sell your blowers back when. Glad you finally thawed out from the iceage and accepted that the "internet" is a place of business and how much of that business you lost during that time.
I take back what I said about you waking up from the iceage because you seem to have missed out that there's another type of dyno which was introduced during your sleep. Its called a Mustang Dyno. Read up on it and then put a nice PDF together for us to explain the difference between it and a dynojet.
Yes I will stick to what I do best which is distributing parts as long as you promise me to keep on doing what you do best which is fooling people into believing your BAP is a real fuel system. Its not which is why it was pulled off the evo car. They put a "real" system in. Yes a return style triple pump system which I will take credit for as I was the one to have Justin@Fore Precision actually make that happen. Maybe that's why you have such anger towards me? Because I worked with others to bring another option to the market? Something that made it so your guitar amplifier wasn't the only game in town?
Never said it was running a returnless system. You just assumed I did which is your mistake. And they aren't Viper pumps or return style pumps.. keep guessing.
Jim,
I am the person that made that triple return hat come to life. If it wasn't for me asking Justin to make it Evo wouldn't have had that option to go with. Yes, my motivation to bring other options to the market allowed them to have another option other than yours.
Right Jim. As with any system a larger injector will give more room. I'm so happy you taught me that and I appreciate the lesson.
The frankensystem must have been good enough for your boys at Evo as they replaced your Boost a clunk gimic of a fuel system with one.
Again,
We'll go back to the same thing. I have others build and test products for me in the same way you do. HPS designs, manufacturers and tests the blowers you call "Kenne Bell". The same way Mercury Magnetics manufacturers and tests the amplifiers you call "Boost a pumps". You're no different than me except that I haven't been frozen in ice for 20 years.
Its so interesting that its NOT running the BAP anymore but a "pump people" inspired triple pump system. NO BAP. Don't you understand that?
Funny that your calling me the babbler. Look at every post you make. Every PDF you have. Its all drawn out garbage being spewed to make the customer that doesn't know better think that you have the answers. You just overload them with your propaganda hoping that they will just accept it. I'll be more than happy to test the 3 pump against a bap and stock pumps. But its not going to happen in your magical shop with your magical dyno. You know the one that never gets customers the same results as you guys advertise? Can't tell you how many times I see that.
PDF PDF PDF... There you go again Jim. Back to the only thing you know. Overloading the customer with bs to make you actually look like you know what you're talking about. No doubt you've been in the game a long time and do have more experience than I do. However, you still can't do anything else other than go back to your PDF's.
Ha.. Evolution agrees. That's funny. They're in the same shady circle as you. I'm real confident that we'll get the truth from them.:nonono:
Whether you respect me or not I know I take up space in that head of yours. How you basically whine about me selling Whipple and have taken away from your BAP business by providing another fuel option. Its flattering and when I hear stuff like that it reassures me that I'm doing my job.
edit by Derek: Jim, I would like to see a .pdf file with a bar graph showing the spike in BAP sales in the 2008-2009 fiscal year. Thanks.
Back to taking shots at us. No Jim we don't work out of a storage shed. We lease 4000sqft of warehouse space. If you ever come down you're welcome to come by and visit. There's a handicap entrance so you can roll yourself through the doors. There's even enough space to setup your favorite shuffleboard if you're in the mood. No dyno, No flow bench, no tools. Don't need em. That's not our business. We sell parts. Lots of em. The more you talk the less people want to buy anything from you. Millions of dollars of Whipples and no KB's so keep on talking and posting PDF's. Keep on hating and I'll keep on selling.
That was not Jared that wrote that reply, that was myself, Derek Perez.
I would like to touch on something that Tony (thebull) brought up. I'm sure you know that turbo's require less pump and injector duty cycle due to their lower parasitic loss versus any blower, and running a car on the dyno is different than running the car with REAL load on the street. Even at 1000 rwhp (what matters), do you really think that turbo car would not max out the pumps and injectors when making a 4th gear pull on the street with how it was tuned with your Competition BAP? With that being said, the blower with it's higher parasitic loss of HP would actually require MORE fuel (pump and injector duty cycle) to make less power, so 1000 rwhp will not happen with a blower like it did with the turbo car. As for the turbo car again, if there was still more fuel volume to be had with the stock pumps and the Comp. BAP with just the swap to 160 lb injectors, why didn't Evo just swap to the 160's? I mean, 160's are a lot cheaper than a $1,900 triple return fuel system that Lethal Performance pioneered, so why not go that route? I don't think we need a .pdf file to explain that one ;-)
The fact of the matter is, the BAP has it's place for someone on a budget with a bolt on street car. When it comes to making big power, stock pumps and lines with a high output guitar amplifier just isn't going to cut it. If all anyone really needed was just a BAP for 1000 engine HP, why don't any of the NMRA or NMCA racers just stick with stock lines, pumps with a BAP? Hmmm, I don't think we need a .pdf explanation for that one either :bored:
The response below is in Jared's own words as he is at PRI, enjoy :thumbsup:
Jim Bell said:
Yes we are fortunate to have Jon tune for us as we are not tuners. In the same way you're lucky to have HPS in sweden design and manufacturer those superchargers that you label and sell under the name Kenne Bell.
Jim Bell said:
Wow.. How shocking. You pulled out one of your BS PDF files. As if we had no idea that was coming. Here's another PDF which you should read carefully. It pretty much sums things up.
INSERT. Triple pump system --->BAP.
Jim Bell said:
Right. Like I have any interest in working on cars. You know our business from day one is to distribute parts. The same reason we didn't "qualify" to sell your blowers back when. Glad you finally thawed out from the iceage and accepted that the "internet" is a place of business and how much of that business you lost during that time.
Jim Bell said:
I take back what I said about you waking up from the iceage because you seem to have missed out that there's another type of dyno which was introduced during your sleep. Its called a Mustang Dyno. Read up on it and then put a nice PDF together for us to explain the difference between it and a dynojet.
Jim Bell said:
Yes I will stick to what I do best which is distributing parts as long as you promise me to keep on doing what you do best which is fooling people into believing your BAP is a real fuel system. Its not which is why it was pulled off the evo car. They put a "real" system in. Yes a return style triple pump system which I will take credit for as I was the one to have Justin@Fore Precision actually make that happen. Maybe that's why you have such anger towards me? Because I worked with others to bring another option to the market? Something that made it so your guitar amplifier wasn't the only game in town?
Jim Bell said:
Never said it was running a returnless system. You just assumed I did which is your mistake. And they aren't Viper pumps or return style pumps.. keep guessing.
Jim Bell said:
Jim,
I am the person that made that triple return hat come to life. If it wasn't for me asking Justin to make it Evo wouldn't have had that option to go with. Yes, my motivation to bring other options to the market allowed them to have another option other than yours.
Jim Bell said:
Right Jim. As with any system a larger injector will give more room. I'm so happy you taught me that and I appreciate the lesson.
Jim Bell said:
The frankensystem must have been good enough for your boys at Evo as they replaced your Boost a clunk gimic of a fuel system with one.
Jim Bell said:
Again,
We'll go back to the same thing. I have others build and test products for me in the same way you do. HPS designs, manufacturers and tests the blowers you call "Kenne Bell". The same way Mercury Magnetics manufacturers and tests the amplifiers you call "Boost a pumps". You're no different than me except that I haven't been frozen in ice for 20 years.
Jim Bell said:
Its so interesting that its NOT running the BAP anymore but a "pump people" inspired triple pump system. NO BAP. Don't you understand that?
Jim Bell said:
Funny that your calling me the babbler. Look at every post you make. Every PDF you have. Its all drawn out garbage being spewed to make the customer that doesn't know better think that you have the answers. You just overload them with your propaganda hoping that they will just accept it. I'll be more than happy to test the 3 pump against a bap and stock pumps. But its not going to happen in your magical shop with your magical dyno. You know the one that never gets customers the same results as you guys advertise? Can't tell you how many times I see that.
Jim Bell said:
PDF PDF PDF... There you go again Jim. Back to the only thing you know. Overloading the customer with bs to make you actually look like you know what you're talking about. No doubt you've been in the game a long time and do have more experience than I do. However, you still can't do anything else other than go back to your PDF's.
Jim Bell said:
Ha.. Evolution agrees. That's funny. They're in the same shady circle as you. I'm real confident that we'll get the truth from them.:nonono:
Jim Bell said:
Whether you respect me or not I know I take up space in that head of yours. How you basically whine about me selling Whipple and have taken away from your BAP business by providing another fuel option. Its flattering and when I hear stuff like that it reassures me that I'm doing my job.
edit by Derek: Jim, I would like to see a .pdf file with a bar graph showing the spike in BAP sales in the 2008-2009 fiscal year. Thanks.
Back to taking shots at us. No Jim we don't work out of a storage shed. We lease 4000sqft of warehouse space. If you ever come down you're welcome to come by and visit. There's a handicap entrance so you can roll yourself through the doors. There's even enough space to setup your favorite shuffleboard if you're in the mood. No dyno, No flow bench, no tools. Don't need em. That's not our business. We sell parts. Lots of em. The more you talk the less people want to buy anything from you. Millions of dollars of Whipples and no KB's so keep on talking and posting PDF's. Keep on hating and I'll keep on selling.
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I am learning sooooo much because of these bouts!
funny thread
Exactly, some say it's childish blah blah but when you have the manufacturers/tuners/huge vendors all in on thread you know there's a lot of info being thrown around.
Theres some info to be had but I wish these threads would end. Especially when they're no longer about the forum originally posted in. I think the points been made and each others opinions heard. Let it go.
wow!!
note: I love my bap and 2.6h :shrug:
note: I love my bap and 2.6h :shrug:
All this happend this morning. Wow. This is awsome.
I had a question please educate me lethal or kenne. I want to run a twin turbo set up for my 98 cobra, since my old 66 mustang with a 347 build I was told, more power, means more fuel, so get a bigger carburetor. isn't it the same for efi setup? more power= bigger fuel pump, or more of them? So 2 pumps would work better right? I cant see how over working a pump with bap would be good for the car. Seams like it would burn out the pump, wouldnt it? I want 1000 hp on my little cobra and i want to drive it every day 
you kiddin' me?! this is good shit!!!
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