Kenne bell competition dual boost-a-pump makes 1020 rwhp (1200ehp)

[Carbd86GT]

I had a question please educate me lethal or kenne. I want to run a twin turbo set up for my 98 cobra, since my old 66 mustang with a 347 build I was told, more power, means more fuel, so get a bigger carburetor. isn't it the same for efi setup? more power= bigger fuel pump, or more of them? So 2 pumps would work better right? I cant see how over working a pump with bap would be good for the car. Seams like it would burn out the pump, wouldnt it? I want 1000 hp on my little cobra and i want to drive it every day

You have the same mind-set that we do at Lethal, and the mind set I've personally had WELLLL before KB was contracting HPS to design and build their Mustang blowers, before Mecury Magnetics was designing and building their BAPS, and well before Lethal Performance was even a thought. Anytime I've needed more fuel, I've used a larger pump, lines, and carb or injectors. I'm not saying that with in limits the BAP won't work, it obviously does, but it's not a complete solution in my personal opinion. You don't want to even open that bag of worms with KB, about how the BAP pushes pumps past their designed limits, they will PDF the shit out of you with their "tests". There is a reason why KB is really the ONLY company that pushes a BAP, and that's because everyone else out there that is serious about their cars performance installs a pump(s) that is sufficient for the power their engine will produce. That includes regular Joe's like you and I, all the way up to professional racers.

Now to your original question. For the power you are wanting to produce, 1000 engine horsepower (~850 rwhp), I would go with twin Walbro 255lph pumps with a -8an feed and 80 lb injectors. If you are wanting to make 1000+ rwhp, I would opt for the triple Walbro 255lph system with a set of high impedance injectors from Injector Dymanics (if you are still using the factory electronics). I hope that answers some of your questions, jsut let us know if you have nay more.

 

[nestmendoza98]

Got it thanks lethal.

p.s. i have your guys 2009 calender on my wall, it was in one of the 5.0 mags, with all the hot chicks and all the cobras. Its an awsome calender thank you for that hahaha.

 

[Robert M]

You spoke too soon!
op:

Isn't that a fact^^^^^^^^?!?!? Keep the oil hot, and I'll take salt on mine!! op:


R

 

[Van@RevanRacing]

Many of you might recall my epic woes in trying to tune my GT500 when I initially installed a Whipple 3.4 on my car. Thankfully I was able to get it tuned remotely through the help of Jon Lund. My goals for rwhp were modest as I was searching for 650 rwhp which should not have required 72 lb. injectors and/or a BAP or MSD Boost A Pump. However, I was told I was going to need these based on the preliminary data logs with my car on the dyno.

In working with the folks at Whipple they sent me a wiring diagram that would utilize two MSD Boost A Pumps as voltage amplifiers for the FPDM's. For obvious reasons Whipple would not suggest I purchase anything from Kenne Bell, so they directed me toward the MSD units. The MSD units that I purchased were specifically designed for Return Style Fuel Systems and I was uncomfortable at the time going against any manufacturers suggestions because I was having so many freakin' problems.

I opted for the Kenne Bell Dual Boost A Pump as it was designed specifically for the GT500 fuel system.

My simple point being that it seems logical to increase pump voltage as Ford has been doing it for years and all of the major manufacturers of superchargers knowingly and openly recommend and/or sell different fuel pump voltage boosters to help with fuel delivery. This includes Whipple, Kenne Bell and ProCharger.

All things being equal, I have worked with both companies and I have had both superchargers on my car. Both supercharger companies provided me with different options and solutions for my fuel delivery needs. Both companies condoned this application. A little background, I am an electrical contractor by trade and immediately questioned the validity of increasing voltage to the FPDM's. I understood the theory, but I wasn't interested in burning up my pumps. After some due diligence on my own and some phone calls to friends at Ford Racing I was assured that increasing the voltage to the FPDM was acceptable and it would not adversely affect the operational values of the pumps. I spoke with a lot of people at Ford Racing. The guys at Ford Racing basically said, "Dude, don't worry about it, those pumps can take it".

Whipple referred me to MSD Boost A Pump (Specific Part No. not available)

Kenne Bell referred me to their Kenne Bell Dual Boost A Pump

Procharger offers the Procharger Boost-A-Pump

There are pro's and con's to all applications however it requires some due diligence, reading and preparation before making an educated buying decision with these products or any product.

 

[loweredf1]

callaway had some sort of BAP in there 616 kit on my dads vet! i cant wait to get my 2.8 with BAPs im perfectly happy going that route:rockon:

 

[EX1]

callaway had some sort of BAP in there 616 kit on my dads vet! i cant wait to get my 2.8 with BAPs im perfectly happy going that route:rockon:

BAPs will work fine for most people. I think the big argument here that a lot of people are missing is how to solve the fuel needs for BIG hp cars, like 900+

 

[evasive]

:burn:

:bash:

oke:

:bs:

:fart:

:loser:

:cuss:

:kaboom:

:whine:

I think this thread covers them all. Plus some good info.

 

[camdenlake]

$?

Ok so there is some great info here I agree. Some entertainment too. But I want to know what is the cost difference between these systems? I am looking at adding some more go so I am curious what we are really talking about here.

BAP vs. Double or triple pump $$?


Thanks
Josh

 

[brisk_tea]

all i know is that if I was spending the cash to run a 1000+ rwhp car, I wouldn't care about an extra $3k or so to guarantee that I would have enough fuel.

I think the BAP is fine for the all the "dyno-queens" that will never fully utilize their cars or horsepower.

But I think that if the car is really going to be used/raced to take advantage of that power, is someone really going to have a problem investing $3K or so to make sure their $20K+ engine is safe? No, they're not, otherwise Aeromotive wouldn't be as successful as they are with the foxes, etc...

All these guys out there with 750+ to the wheels, and they have no roll-bars/cages, and aren't at tracks. Let them have the BAPs.
All else, full investment is the only way, as it's been with the foxes for years...

 

[Carbd86GT]

Ok so there is some great info here I agree. Some entertainment too. But I want to know what is the cost difference between these systems? I am looking at adding some more go so I am curious what we are really talking about here.

BAP vs. Double or triple pump $$?


Thanks
Josh

The triple pump system sells for about $1900.00, plus the cost of injectors. KB states the BAP is $449.00, plus the cost of injectors.

 

[rdsnk46]

Confusious says "Man with hand in pocket, feel cocky all day long...."

 

[camdenlake]

The triple pump system sells for about $1900.00, plus the cost of injectors. KB states the BAP is $449.00, plus the cost of injectors.

Really are we having this big of a disucssion over 1500$ on a $50,000+ investment ??? This kills me when i see this stuff on forums. How do I i cheap out more on my high dollar toy. Wow.


Josh

 

[evasive]

I think the discussion is about how effective each one is. I never considered cost nor is it likely that those with fully built blocks did either.

 

[97desertCobra]

I think the discussion is about how effective each one is. I never considered cost nor is it likely that those with fully built blocks did either.

This. Cost isnt the real arguement here. In the future when I rebuild and go for bigger power I'm going with a real fuel system, not a fuel system that is ramped up and pushed harder than factory intended with a BAP. So what if the injectors and pump have more in them from what the manufacturer states? I want peace of mind that my car will get adequate amount of fuel every day no matter what because the infectors, pump, lines, rails etc are able to support my horsepower. Not a fuel system that is maxed out 100, 200, 300 hp less than what I am making but is managing to keep up with the use of a BAP which, if I am understanding it right, is pushing the injectors and pump past the manufactures specifications. There is a reason manufactures state a limit, a lph, lbh etc. My common sense tells me thats a bad idea to push past their intended limit.

 

[camdenlake]

I think the discussion is about how effective each one is. I never considered cost nor is it likely that those with fully built blocks did either.

Ok i see that now. I guess it just gets back to root of which one is better and it just depends what you want then?

Josh

 

[MD03SVT]

I would be curious to know what the spec's are on the Modified GT500 pumps that come with the FRPP 2.9L 750HP kit and see some actual data-logging results as this may prove to be the ticket for 700 - 850 hp cars along with 72# injectors.

 

[Sniperdog]

I would imagine for an all out race car a bigger pump/pumps would be best,.,., but for 98% of us who drive the cars every day, the bab is better by far. I/we don't need a fire hydrant sized fuel system for 99% of my/our driving, so my bab only has to come on @ 10psi and up, which is better (IMHO) than trying to feed a top fuel car on my cruise to an from work :shrug:

 

[TECH@KB]

Jim,

That was not Jared that wrote that reply, that was myself, Derek Perez.

I would like to touch on something that Tony (thebull) brought up. I'm sure you know that turbo's require less pump and injector duty cycle due to their lower parasitic loss versus any blower, and running a car on the dyno is different than running the car with REAL load on the street. Even at 1000 rwhp (what matters), do you really think that turbo car would not max out the pumps and injectors when making a 4th gear pull on the street with how it was tuned with your Competition BAP? With that being said, the blower with it's higher parasitic loss of HP would actually require MORE fuel (pump and injector duty cycle) to make less power, so 1000 rwhp will not happen with a blower like it did with the turbo car.

WRONG ABOUT TURBO AND FUEL

The fact that you make an incorrect statement “you know that turbo's require less pump and injector duty cycle due to their lower parasitic loss versus any blower” lets us know how little you know. There is this thing called “airflow”. It takes a certain airflow to make horsepower, independent of engine size or what “blower” or turbo it has installed on it. You obviously don’t know much about this, or you would not have made such a statement. The same car with 1000 hp on a turbo will require the same fuel as a 1000hp twin screw because at 1000hp, they will both flow the same air. This means they will both consume the SAME amount of fuel. This is one of the most basic calculations for determining how much fuel you need for a given horsepower. Horsepower is horsepower. At the same 1000hp level, the engine does not care what blower or turbo it has on it when it comes to the amount of fuel required. If they both make 1000 hp, they will both consume the same amount of fuel, irrespective of their "parasitic drag", and even if they run different boost. The constant here is horsepower. Similar to a 100 cubic inch engine at 300 hp will consume the same amount of fuel as a 300 cubic inch engine at 300hp with the same BSFC. You must not know this, so why or how could you offer advice to others wanting to set up their fuel systems? This is the quality of Tech being offered by Lethal?

REASONS WHY YOU (LETHAL) CANNOT BE A KENNE BELL DISTRIBUTOR

This among many others are reasons Lethal was cut off a long time ago and will never be a Kenne Bell distributor, because Lethal has no technical background, performs none of their own tests, cannot tune vehicles (in Jared’s own words), etc. You have no dyno, no shop, no service equipment, no nothing to back your claims. And that’s right, no pdfs. Lethal offers nothing of any value for their customers to refer to that we can see. You and Jared seem to be the only ones complaining about our pdfs. Our customers love them and complement us all the time about our technical abilities, knowledge and reporting of accurate data based on real, controlled tests. You really should read them sometime and get yourself an education. But then again, if you don’t want to know the truth, you can simply chose not to read them and maybe they won’t bother you so much. Of course it makes sense to us you bash our products since you will never be allowed to sell them, but get real. Start doing some controlled testing where you actually collect data for comparison, then maybe you’ll gain some credibility in these discussions.

THE FACTS HERE

Kenne Bell posted up tests on a 1020rwhp (well over 1000 ehp) Evolution turbo car with a Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump and stock Shelby fuel system using 80lb injectors. Probably more on a Dynojet as you say Jared, since it was run on a Mustang Dyno. One of the “goals” for Jon Lund was to determine the limit of this system. Lethal immediately chimes in and launches their “screwdriver and crescent wrench” analysis of a simple dyno test to determine the limit. We feel the 1020 rwhp test speaks volumes about the Boost-A-Pump’s capability at $449. Understandably, Jared is frustrated with the BAP’s performance, popularity and reliability. He continues to have difficulty in convincing Ford owners to cough up all that hard earned cash ($1845 plus plenty of labor) for a “two pump” system that does not pump as much fuel as the BAP system. Whoa! Kenne Bell’s test result “pdf” published on our website at http://www.kennebell.net/techinfo/general-info/fuelpumptech.pdf claims 1000ehp/850rwhp - with a comfortable safety margin, verified by Jon’s tests at 1200ehp/1020rwhp. Yes, Jared and Derek, ANOTHER pdf.

In the other corner is the “3 pump” ($2044 plus a lot of labor) system. Can it match the BAP? Is 3 255l pumps better than the BAP? Lethal can’t tell us for sure. No real test data results. No dyno, no air/fuel monitoring equipment, no tuning ability.... doesn’t need all that stuff Jared says. Really? You’re kidding, right?

Jared, we think you are boring everyone with your weak, unsupported responses. Let’s settle this and employ Jon Lund to do the test. Will it outperform the BAP with the stock pumps? You don’t really know, so why not test it? Then Ford enthusiasts can make an educated decision based on facts, not just hype. We have our results. Where are yours? All we know is you tested it on a car that could only muster 726 rwhp (5.0 Magazine October, 2008), then again on some post recently where it still couldn’t even break the 800rwhp barrier. Not very good tests for “checking the limits” of your fuel system.

Kenne Bell believes that “big hats, fittings, lines, rails, filters, etc.”, are not necessary at the 1000hp level and just seves to line the pockets of the hawkers or resellers. More discussion on this topic will be coming soon and will be very revealing and informative, we promise. Let Jon test the complex Lethal 2 pump system and see if it can support 800rwhp (your claim on your post of 09/23/09) and “all the way up to 1000+rwhp" as your literature claims for the 3 pump system. Remember the BAP already proved it could support over 1000 rwhp.

It’s your turn in the barrel. Take us up on the challenge: a) Stock Shelby GT500 pumps and BAP vs. your b) 2 pump and c) 3 pump using a 850-1000 rwhp car. Jon checks HP, AFR, flow, duty cycle, pressure, etc.. of all 3. Then we’ll all know who needs to go through the expense of a Lethal 2 or 3 pump system.

Ken

 

[TECH@KB]

KENNE BELL/HPS MANUFACTURING

Another issue that must be cleared up is Jared seems obsessed about where Kenne Bell superchargers are manufactured. All twin rotor screws - except for Techo - have been manufactured in Sweden for years and shipped to the U.S. We have the three best twin screw engineers on the planet at HPS. Kenne Bell and HPS, our affiliate in Sweden, are partners in the design, testing and tuning and manufacturing of supercharger kits. Kenne Bell for the U.S. and HPS outside the U.S.

Manufacturing of the compressors is done by HPS in Sweden. They are shipped to the U.S. where Kenne Bell assembles them with our in-house kit components. Unlike Lethal, who’s products simply “changes hands” from other suppliers, Kenne Bell is the manufacturer. Lethal manufactures nothing to our knowledge. Test cars and trucks are present at both HPS and Kenne Bell. Our kits and superchargers flow freely between the locations. The supercharger dyno is located at HPS. The chassis dyno, air and fuel flow benches, and all other test equipment and tuning are performed in-house at Kenne Bell. We are partners with HPS. The new Patent Pending 3.6LC and 4.2LC Liquid Cooled superchargers are registered under both companies.

Jim Bell

 

[Leonard 95]

Lethal does provide good customer service which goes along way now of days if you didn't know. Some of us aren't interested if lethal test the products or have some special lab, we just want to buy parts from good people!