Kill the new GTO

[Cobra03]

"Some of you guys are really showing your Ford-biased views."

Sorry. Not me. I am brand independant. I buy what I like and the features I can afford at the time. I could care less whose name is on the trunk. My prior cars:

'66 Mustang
'84 Chrysler Laser Turbo
'87 Jeep Wrangler
'89 Acura Integra
'90 Nissan Maxima
'86 Porsche 928
'03 Cobra

I am not Ford biased in the least. Of all the cars I have owned, the Porsche was the best overall package of performance, looks, build quality, and fit and finish. None of the others even comes close, and nothing ever built by any American company except maybe - wait for it - Corvette. But the maintenance costs on a Porsche will destroy you. And new ones are outrageously expensive.

I bought the Mustang because it is the fastest most fun to drive four seat convertible on the planet, new, used or otherwise at this price point - nothing else comes close. And it looks pretty good to boot. But if the new M3 was $15K cheaper I would have bought that.

My criticism of the styling of the GTO is right on the money. There are plenty of four seaters, even four door performance sedans out there that are beautiful. Nothing about that GTO even raises an eyebrow. That thing could drive though a used Saturn lot and no one would even look twice.

We must demand more. Not just from GM, but from everyone. The Vette looks nice. 350Z is nice. MX-8 is gorgeous. M3 is boxy and still sexy as hell. Chrysler Crossfire. WOW!! Dodge is really starting to deliver. Let's hope they can produce a rear wheel drive supercar. Teh new Mustang is going to be a knockout. Look at the SS concept. That is one super hot looking car. Build it and I will buy it. GM can do it.

 

[Elliotness]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
you say that like we cant beat up on the rest of the GM lineup. :shrug:

No, I mean something new. LS1supporters anticipated that this car would be a match for our cars. When they build the car it will be the only car they produce that is in the same price range etc. as our cars....:beer:

 

[Elliotness]

Originally posted by Shadowgray03
http://www.edmunds.com/news/autoshows/articles/83141/page009.html

:shrug: Uh I stand corrected that doesn't look like a cavalier. No offense guys but that looks like an earlier model Mustang. Thing even has circular fog lights.

 

[FearblueR1]

Originally posted by 03SLOBRA

DOHC is by no means new, its been around as long as pushrods. Just a different way to do things. No its not supercharged from the factory but thats not GM's cup of tea . Truth be known Ford was tired of being out gunned and since they knew the prospects of taking on GM N/A to N/A was not going to fall in their favor and the developemnt cost to make the 4.6 and 5.4L motors run like the LS1-LS6-Vortech engines was too much to spare. They decided to go the supercharged route. Again just another school of thought.

Not true, GM is VERY capable of using superchargers. Look at the M90 on the Pontiac GTP's, Pontiac Bonneville, and the Buick Regals. They have been around for years with M90 Eatons. If my memory serves me they are also putting them on the new Monte Carlos. Not including the GN's. GM is VERY familiar with force induction.

If GM so desired they could and would use a supercharger, only really having to switch out some internal components and lower compression. Just like Ford did. You are correct Ford new they had an engine with a great top end, but was lacking the torque. They used the two in combination to achieve there goal.

GM has the resources and knowledge to do the EXACT same thing, as THEY have done on PREVIOUS cars.

The LS1 is a great motor, and has a great amount of aftermarket support. But it is getting alittle outdated just like the LT1, and L98 motors. Hence forth the move to the LS6 motor.

As far as development costs......it would not take ford very much to stuff the 351 back in the mustang and bolt on another eaton.

Chevy just couldn't attract the "buyers" and had bigger things ahead......the race to SUV's. Truth is they let down there own brand loyalists and now are trying to keep it alive with some small attempts. Chevy never supported the loyalist the way Ford did. Never created there own little 'niche. Hmmm Ford Racing, SVTOA....etc...etc.

Good Luck, I use to be a chevy loyalist, but they have let me down on more than just one occasion. :bash:

 

[SuperStallion55]

:lol: @ your avitar thats great man!

 

[FearblueR1]

Originally posted by TSi999
:lol: @ your avitar thats great man!

My heart will always be with bikes!! That is my true escape!! :beer:

 

[Cobra03]

The upcoming Monte Carlo SS and Impala SS will use supercharged motors.

I always though the old Impala SS with the LS1 was awesome.

 

[Sinister04L]

Originally posted by FearblueR1
Not true, GM is VERY capable of using superchargers. Look at the M90 on the Pontiac GTP's, Pontiac Bonneville, and the Buick Regals. They have been around for years with M90 Eatons. If my memory serves me they are also putting them on the new Monte Carlos. Not including the GN's. GM is VERY familiar with force induction.

If GM so desired they could and would use a supercharger, only really having to switch out some internal components and lower compression. Just like Ford did. You are correct Ford new they had an engine with a great top end, but was lacking the torque. They used the two in combination to achieve there goal.

GM has the resources and knowledge to do the EXACT same thing, as THEY have done on PREVIOUS cars.

The LS1 is a great motor, and has a great amount of aftermarket support. But it is getting alittle outdated just like the LT1, and L98 motors. Hence forth the move to the LS6 motor.

As far as development costs......it would not take ford very much to stuff the 351 back in the mustang and bolt on another eaton.

Chevy just couldn't attract the "buyers" and had bigger things ahead......the race to SUV's. Truth is they let down there own brand loyalists and now are trying to keep it alive with some small attempts. Chevy never supported the loyalist the way Ford did. Never created there own little 'niche. Hmmm Ford Racing, SVTOA....etc...etc.

Good Luck, I use to be a chevy loyalist, but they have let me down on more than just one occasion. :bash:

I don't want to flame here, but that has to be one of the stupidest things I've read in awhile. The LS1 is outdated so they switched to an LS6? Aside from a SLIGHTLY different head and different cam profile, they're the same! As previously stated, don't confuse different valvetrain layouts as "better technology." The LS1 is a very advanced motor. One of the best head designs ever created. Most (obviously not all or I wouldn't be writing this) performance enthusiasts know and respect the LS1's potential. There are heads/cam/bolt on LS1's putting down over 460rwhp, AND knocking down 25+mpg on the highway. Talk about efficiency!

The GTO isn't the best looking car around, but it's definitely a step in the right direction for GM. The interior of the GTO is awesome and the car's platform is much better than the Fbody. It's more of a refined car than the Fbody would ever dream to be. Can it beat an 03 Cobra in the 1/4? No. I don't think it was designed to. Not every car made is designed to compete with the 03 Cobra. Look at the 350Z, RX8, etc.

GM might have let people down (including myself) when they axed the Fbody, but there are many reasons for it that I don't want to get into here. But to say they never built a "niche" market is ridiculous. I think the Vette easily falls into that category.

All that said, I can't wait to get my 03 Cobra. :coolman:

 

[NastyWS6]

GM Killed the GTO by bringing it back in the first place IMHO. I am hoping imports kick the hell out of it. :bash: GM for destroying the classics :bash:

 

[jonas]

they did a good job with the lt1 impala ss. That car was badass!!

 

[HotRodHarry]

Originally posted by jonas
they did a good job with the lt1 impala ss. That car was badass!!

Yep...real nice car...I had one....a 96....and what did GM do with that...Killed it! God do I hate GM.

Hot Rod(Modern day GM sucks in my book)Harry
www.HotRodHarrys.com
Yep...owned 74 cars and most were GM...they lost one hell of a loyal customer...but Ford thanks them very much.

 

[FearblueR1]

Originally posted by 03CobraHopeful
I don't want to flame here, but that has to be one of the stupidest things I've read in awhile. The LS1 is outdated so they switched to an LS6? Aside from a SLIGHTLY different head and different cam profile, they're the same! As previously stated, don't confuse different valvetrain layouts as "better technology." The LS1 is a very advanced motor. One of the best head designs ever created. Most (obviously not all or I wouldn't be writing this) performance enthusiasts know and respect the LS1's potential. There are heads/cam/bolt on LS1's putting down over 460rwhp, AND knocking down 25+mpg on the highway. Talk about efficiency!

The GTO isn't the best looking car around, but it's definitely a step in the right direction for GM. The interior of the GTO is awesome and the car's platform is much better than the Fbody. It's more of a refined car than the Fbody would ever dream to be. Can it beat an 03 Cobra in the 1/4? No. I don't think it was designed to. Not every car made is designed to compete with the 03 Cobra. Look at the 350Z, RX8, etc.

GM might have let people down (including myself) when they axed the Fbody, but there are many reasons for it that I don't want to get into here. But to say they never built a "niche" market is ridiculous. I think the Vette easily falls into that category.

All that said, I can't wait to get my 03 Cobra. :coolman:

Hmmmmm didn't mean to flame, huh?? :burn: Ok, if you say so.

First of all, I'm sorry if you took offense to the word "outdated".

Second of all, I NEVER SLAMMED or showed ANY disrespect to the LS1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do have respect for the LS1's, I know of MANY LS1's that are putting down SERIOUS horsepower! But like the Chevy's, I know of many 302's belting out SERIOUS horsepower!! Now do I consider the 302 to be "alittle old"??? Yes!!! Does that mean it's not capable of making horsepower???? Hell no!!!!

I was trying to make a point, to the "chevy" guy that GM could have bolted on a roots blower, just like ford did.

His point was that "Forced Induction was not GM's cup of tea" I slimply stated that GM has been around forced induction for a long time, ie...cyclone, typhoon, bonneville ssei, GTP, GN, Buick regal's, Monte's....to add to the list.

Maybe I should say it a different way. Hmmm the LT1 was out in the 93 Z's and went to 97. The LS1 was first available in 97 in the vette's, then made its way to the Z in 98. It was in the Z until the end of production. So if my math is correct the LT1 lasted about 4 years. The LS1 is going on 6 years. The motor, even though still used, will be nearing the end of its production cycle. Get over it!!!!

If the Z and Firebird was still in production, do you honestly think GM wouldn't have eventually put the LS6 in?????

Even though a LS6 is "nothing more than a different cam and head"??? But wait that can't be right, the LS1 has "one of the best flowing head designs".....hmmm something doesn't add up.

I guess GM found a way to extract alittle more out of the intake, heads, & Cam?!?!?!? Then designated it an LS6. Hmmmm the LS1 evolved into the LS6??? Could it be??? Say it isn't so!!!!

Also, if the LS1 has such "GREAT" flowing heads....then why do allot of people bolt on a "head, & cam package" to obtain 460hp???? In fact my buddy is messing with a 5.4 truck head and getting better results than the "stock" LS1 head!!!!

The fact is the motor "IS" going on 6 years, the aftermarket is coming full circle, just like they did with the 302's.

Lesson: Things do Change!!! Change can be good!!!

Now all you GM die hards, don't get your panties in a knot!!!!! I'm sure GM is working on another fire breathing engine to replace your precious LS1!!!!

Most (obviously not all or I wouldn't be writing this) performance enthusiasts know and respect the LS1's potential.

by the way:idea: ....next time....go piss in someone elses corn flakes!!!

 

[03DOHC]

Who cares what the gm guys think of us on their board?:shrug: I think that car looks like one of those Lexus things.:burn:

 

[Sinister04L]

Originally posted by FearblueR1
Hmmmmm didn't mean to flame, huh?? :burn: Ok, if you say so.

First of all, I'm sorry if you took offense to the word "outdated".

Second of all, I NEVER SLAMMED or showed ANY disrespect to the LS1!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do have respect for the LS1's, I know of MANY LS1's that are putting down SERIOUS horsepower! But like the Chevy's, I know of many 302's belting out SERIOUS horsepower!! Now do I consider the 302 to be "alittle old"??? Yes!!! Does that mean it's not capable of making horsepower???? Hell no!!!!

I was trying to make a point, to the "chevy" guy that GM could have bolted on a roots blower, just like ford did.

His point was that "Forced Induction was not GM's cup of tea" I slimply stated that GM has been around forced induction for a long time, ie...cyclone, typhoon, bonneville ssei, GTP, GN, Buick regal's, Monte's....to add to the list.

Maybe I should say it a different way. Hmmm the LT1 was out in the 93 Z's and went to 97. The LS1 was first available in 97 in the vette's, then made its way to the Z in 98. It was in the Z until the end of production. So if my math is correct the LT1 lasted about 4 years. The LS1 is going on 6 years. The motor, even though still used, will be nearing the end of its production cycle. Get over it!!!!

If the Z and Firebird was still in production, do you honestly think GM wouldn't have eventually put the LS6 in?????

Even though a LS6 is "nothing more than a different cam and head"??? But wait that can't be right, the LS1 has "one of the best flowing head designs".....hmmm something doesn't add up.

I guess GM found a way to extract alittle more out of the intake, heads, & Cam?!?!?!? Then designated it an LS6. Hmmmm the LS1 evolved into the LS6??? Could it be??? Say it isn't so!!!!

Also, if the LS1 has such "GREAT" flowing heads....then why do allot of people bolt on a "head, & cam package" to obtain 460hp???? In fact my buddy is messing with a 5.4 truck head and getting better results than the "stock" LS1 head!!!!

The fact is the motor "IS" going on 6 years, the aftermarket is coming full circle, just like they did with the 302's.

Lesson: Things do Change!!! Change can be good!!!

Now all you GM die hards, don't get your panties in a knot!!!!! I'm sure GM is working on another fire breathing engine to replace your precious LS1!!!!



by the way:idea: ....next time....go piss in someone elses corn flakes!!!

Dude, you're a retard. GM didn't put a blower on the LS1/6 because they don't HAVE to. They make roughly the same hp as the blown DOHC 4.6 WITHOUT it. CAN they put one on there? Sure they can. Maybe the new C6 will have forced induction, who knows? But just because Ford decided to strap a blower onto the Cobra doesn't mean it's technologically superior.

The LS1 has been around for 6 years so it's near the end of it's cycle? WTF does that mean? The vaunted 5.0 (which I think is an excellent little motor) was around in Mustangs for 17 years!

Yes the LS1 has one of the best heads ever made on it. There are only SUBTLE differences between the LS1 and LS6 head. Does that subtle difference make more power? You bet your ass it does, but it's not like it's a totally different design. Your buddy is messing around with a 5.3 truck head BTW, not a 5.4, and again, they're basically the same head! They have almost the same exact flow characteristics. The 5.3L, 5.7LS1, 5.7LS6, and 6.0L head can all be swapped out with each other. We're building my fiancee's T/A, and we're going to use 6.0L heads. Why? Because they flow almost as good as LS6 heads but are cheaper. BTW, your buddy should get great results right away with the 5.3L head, it makes more compression on an LS1 motor.

Why do people do "head and cam" packages if the LS1 head flows so much? Uhhh, maybe because after they're ported they flow more? Don't be stupid. They can flow 340cfm after porting. That's awesome for a stock small block head.

I'm not pissing in anyone's cornflakes, I'm just pointing out how ignorant people can be.

 

[Friendchicken]

GM did not "bring back the GTO" that car could have "Cavalier SS" or "Grand Prix SS" stamped on the back and I wouldn't disagree.

GTO is supposed to represent the power and strength of the Musclecar era. I just don't see that here.

I'm sure it's going to be a nice sport sedan and I would put it in the same class as a maurader, but to think all the LS1 boys are going for this 2-door family car is outrageous.

You guys can argue black and blue, but it's just another car with GM going "HAHA, look what we do with camaros now".

 

[jonas]

gto went from muscle car to rice mobile.
It need stickers, 3 coils cut, and a phatty wing
cant forget the neons.

That pos looks like a grand prix. Performance is importaint but if the car looks like ass then i aint driving it

You guys like the new impala fwd cars?
they are using the name for marketing ONLY

GM knows less about its heritage than its customer base, than the ford customers know about them!!!

 

[HotRodHarry]

Oh yeah..thats it...Ford just strapped a Supercharger to the Cobra's Engine. You my friend are the freakin Retard if you think that.

2003 Cobra...capable of well over 800 Rear Wheel Horse on the stock motor! Stock Cams(4 of em!)..stock Heads...stock Crank...stock Pistons...stock Rods...stock Block! Try that in a LS1 or LS6! And another thing...what a waste of the LS6 name plate....in my book and LS6 is a 450 Horsepower Big Block 454 cubed monster from 1970! Same thing with the LT1 (nice modern motor) but GM should have left that name alone too...the LT1 was one radical cammed small block from 1970 too. Now the GTO...God..GM just urks me.

I have owned the Ram Air LS1 and it just cant compare to the brute strength of the 2003 Cobra's 4.6 engine.

Sorry to go on and on.....venting I guess. I feel better now...thanks. I just get so worked up when people think that Ford just strapped a blower on the Cobra and thats it...or say we are cheating....Fock That! We are WINNING!!!! and GM is LOSING!

Hot Rod )Harry
www.HotRodHarrys.com

Originally posted by 03CobraHopeful
Dude, you're a retard. GM didn't put a blower on the LS1/6 because they don't HAVE to. They make roughly the same hp as the blown DOHC 4.6 WITHOUT it. CAN they put one on there? Sure they can. Maybe the new C6 will have forced induction, who knows? But just because Ford decided to strap a blower onto the Cobra doesn't mean it's technologically superior.

The LS1 has been around for 6 years so it's near the end of it's cycle? WTF does that mean? The vaunted 5.0 (which I think is an excellent little motor) was around in Mustangs for 17 years!

Yes the LS1 has one of the best heads ever made on it. There are only SUBTLE differences between the LS1 and LS6 head. Does that subtle difference make more power? You bet your ass it does, but it's not like it's a totally different design. Your buddy is messing around with a 5.3 truck head BTW, not a 5.4, and again, they're basically the same head! They have almost the same exact flow characteristics. The 5.3L, 5.7LS1, 5.7LS6, and 6.0L head can all be swapped out with each other. We're building my fiancee's T/A, and we're going to use 6.0L heads. Why? Because they flow almost as good as LS6 heads but are cheaper. BTW, your buddy should get great results right away with the 5.3L head, it makes more compression on an LS1 motor.

Why do people do "head and cam" packages if the LS1 head flows so much? Uhhh, maybe because after they're ported they flow more? Don't be stupid. They can flow 340cfm after porting. That's awesome for a stock small block head.

I'm not pissing in anyone's cornflakes, I'm just pointing out how ignorant people can be.

 

[2k2ss]

stock FORGED internals!! and they did have to change the block remember the recall? and gm could'nt put a blower on an f-body because it won't fit under the hood or cowl of a fourth gen body! the forged internals are why a cobra motor cost's 12 grand and an ls1 cost's 7grand! no flame and not trying to start anything!! hell i'm thinking about an 03 cobra myself!!!!!:beer:

 

[New22003]

Its just nice to see manufacturers going back to rear drive platforms. Im glad GM has a new rear driver car with a V8. I much prefer the way a rear drive car handles compared to a front driver. I have always felt front drive is a compromise and for non-performance cars.(since most race cars dont use front drive) The more choices I have the better it is for me. I imagine GM will build a few different cars based on the upcoming GTO platform to cut costs. Hopefully some of them will look great. I am in no way anti-any car company, as long as they make something that I want.

These are the cars I would own from many different car companies. I liked the previous body style Impala SS and always thought thats something I would drive if I had kids or was older. I never cared for the looks of the Camaros but liked the Trans Ams. They were both great preforming cars for the money. The Corvette looks great and always has minus the 1973-1982 models. Dodge has had some cool cars like the Viper and Prowler but I cant afford a Viper and the Prowler was under-powered. I think the toyota Supra was a neat car and enjoyed mine quite alot. I also really like the new 350Z cars.

People who drive nice fast cars and are friendly and respectful are friends of mine any day. I still cruise with my friends even though 2 of them have supras, 1 mr2, 2 camaros, 2 gt stangs, 1 vette, 1 1971 cuda, and 1 T/A. We take road trips together and appreciate each others cars and know each one has its strong points.

I am a car guy, who likes high performing, nice looking cars.

 

[Sinister04L]

Originally posted by HotRodHarry
Oh yeah..thats it...Ford just strapped a Supercharger to the Cobra's Engine. You my friend are the freakin Retard if you think that.

2003 Cobra...capable of well over 800 Rear Wheel Horse on the stock motor! Stock Cams(4 of em!)..stock Heads...stock Crank...stock Pistons...stock Rods...stock Block! Try that in a LS1 or LS6! And another thing...what a waste of the LS6 name plate....in my book and LS6 is a 450 Horsepower Big Block 454 cubed monster from 1970! Same thing with the LT1 (nice modern motor) but GM should have left that name alone too...the LT1 was one radical cammed small block from 1970 too. Now the GTO...God..GM just urks me.

I have owned the Ram Air LS1 and it just cant compare to the brute strength of the 2003 Cobra's 4.6 engine.

Sorry to go on and on.....venting I guess. I feel better now...thanks. I just get so worked up when people think that Ford just strapped a blower on the Cobra and thats it...or say we are cheating....Fock That! We are WINNING!!!! and GM is LOSING!

Hot Rod )Harry
www.HotRodHarrys.com

Harry, I couldn't agree with you more about the potential of the 03 Cobra. That's why I'm getting one! I wasn't putting down the Cobra, just saying that the Z06 (actually the LS1 based motors) isn't the POS that a lot of people on here think.