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Beernuts

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So is it considered collusion when dealers in a particular region all talk to each other and systematically raise prices $5-10k? I've had 3 dealers all admit this to me and even have it in writing from a few of the real smart ones.

http://www.justice.gov/atr/price-fixing-bid-rigging-and-market-allocation-schemes

"When competitors collude, prices are inflated and the customer is cheated. Price fixing, bid rigging, and other forms of collusion are illegal and are subject to criminal prosecution by the Antitrust Division of the United States Department of Justice."

"Enacted in 1890, the Sherman Act is among our country's most important and enduring pieces of economic legislation. The Sherman Act prohibits any agreement among competitors to fix prices, rig bids, or engage in other anticompetitive activity. Criminal prosecution of Sherman Act violations is the responsibility of the Antitrust Division of the United States Department of Justice. "

"While vendors who collude try to keep their arrangements secret, occasional slips or carelessness may be a tip-off to collusion. In addition, certain patterns of conduct or statements by bidders or their employees suggest the possibility of collusion. Be alert for the following situations, each of which has triggered a successful criminal antitrust prosecution:

-Bid or price documents contain white-outs or other physical alterations indicating last-minute price changes. (have this in writing)
-Any statement indicating that vendors have discussed prices among themselves or have reached an understanding about prices. (have this in writing from multiple sources)"
 

13COBRA

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Yeah that's crazy they would say that.


How did they tell you? Were they just justifying their price based on a competitor's price?
 

Beernuts

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Here's one example. Car was listed at MSRP on their website (have a screenshot), I sent an online request to "lock in an eprice" and received a reply stating the price was $62,478. When I asked why the difference in price, here's the reply: "Due to high demand and extremely limited availability, most dealers are pricing and selling their GT350s for well above MSRP. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused."

I have had other dealerships tell me "so-and-so dealership is selling theirs for $XX,XXX, we just talked to them today."

Now the question is, do I waste my time sending screenshots and emails to the AG and DOJ?

Oh and it gets even better, several of the dealerships have since removed the price from their website and replaced it with "call for pricing."

"Other examples of price-fixing agreements include those to: Not advertise prices."
 
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jtfx6552

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Here's one example. Car was listed at MSRP on their website (have a screenshot), I sent an online request to "lock in an eprice" and received a reply stating the price was $62,478. When I asked why the difference in price, here's the reply: "Due to high demand and extremely limited availability, most dealers are pricing and selling their GT350s for well above MSRP. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused."

I have had other dealerships tell me "so-and-so dealership is selling theirs for $XX,XXX, we just talked to them today."

Now the question is, do I waste my time sending screenshots and emails to the AG and DOJ?

Oh and it gets even better, several of the dealerships have since removed the price from their website and replaced it with "call for pricing."

"Other examples of price-fixing agreements include those to: Not advertise prices."

Collusion is very tough to prove. Looking at a website or discussing what a product is for sale for, is not collusion.

A closed door agreement not do sell for less than an agreed upon price is collusion.
 

13COBRA

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Here's one example. Car was listed at MSRP on their website (have a screenshot), I sent an online request to "lock in an eprice" and received a reply stating the price was $62,478. When I asked why the difference in price, here's the reply: "Due to high demand and extremely limited availability, most dealers are pricing and selling their GT350s for well above MSRP. Sorry for any confusion this may have caused."

I have had other dealerships tell me "so-and-so dealership is selling theirs for $XX,XXX, we just talked to them today."

Now the question is, do I waste my time sending screenshots and emails to the AG and DOJ?

Oh and it gets even better, several of the dealerships have since removed the price from their website and replaced it with "call for pricing."

"Other examples of price-fixing agreements include those to: Not advertise prices."
That's not collusion, IMO.
 

Beernuts

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I disagree. I have proof of multiple examples of collusion exactly as described on the DOJ website including:

-Prices previously were different.

-Price increases do not appear to be supported by increased costs.

-Bid or price documents contain white-outs or other physical alterations indicating last-minute price changes.

-Any reference to industry-wide or association price schedules.

-Any statement indicating advance (non-public) knowledge of competitors' pricing.

-Any statement indicating that vendors have discussed prices among themselves or have reached an understanding about prices.

-where price increases are announced by all competitors at the same time, or prior to a uniform effective date, there is a substantial likelihood of collusion.

-evidence of competitors' meetings or telephone conversations raise the possibility of collusion, and such evidence usually comprises the most effective circumstantial form of proof in price-fixing cases

-The agreement need not be embodied in express or formal contractual statements. It must merely constitute some form of mutual understanding that the parties will combine their efforts for a common, unlawful purpose. The ultimate success of the venture is immaterial as long as the agreement is in fact formed.
 
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13COBRA

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I disagree. I have proof of multiple examples of collusion exactly as described on the DOJ website including:

-Prices previously were different.

-Price increases do not appear to be supported by increased costs.

-Bid or price documents contain white-outs or other physical alterations indicating last-minute price changes.

-Any reference to industry-wide or association price schedules.

-Any statement indicating advance (non-public) knowledge of competitors' pricing.
Good luck. I think the AG will grow it out quickly.

As far as pricing being different on their website, a lot of dealerships just have MSRP listed on their website for every vehicle.
 

krt22

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The hardest part is proving it, You would need multiple emails from multiple dealers all explicitly stating how they arrived at the pricing. You would almost need to bait them to name each other specifically.
 

Beernuts

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The hardest part is proving it, You would need multiple emails from multiple dealers all explicitly stating how they arrived at the pricing. You would almost need to bait them to name each other specifically.

I have exactly that and more.
 

13COBRA

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I have exactly that and more.
Again...collusion would be:.

Dealer A: "I called dealer b, c and d...we decided to price the 350s $5k over."

Not collusion :

Dealer A: "We have our 350 priced at $5k over because dealers b, c and d do too."
 

guarnibl

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Dealers know the market pretty well and have been charging ADM for a long, long time, and I've yet to see an anti-trust case brought against anyone for it (but there's investigations been done -- not necessarily for ADM, but take a look at true car). Supply and demand is very heavily influencing pricing of these cars, collusion or not. I'm sure dealers talk, understand the market, and price accordingly. Even if you have "evidence" -- you would have to submit it to the FTC, and it would be in their hands at that point.
 
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roadace

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Dealers know the market pretty well and have been charging ADM for a long, long time, and I've yet to see an anti-trust case brought against anyone for it (but there's investigations been done -- not necessarily for ADM, but take a look at true car). Supply and demand is very heavily influencing pricing of these cars, collusion or not. I'm sure dealers talk, understand the market, and price accordingly. Even if you have "evidence" -- you would have to submit it to the FTC, and it would be in their hands at that point.

That's right. We all know what grease balls most car dealers are but forget about the legal approach to their avaricious pricing.
 

13COBRA

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13COBRA

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Did you go to law school while you were a car salesman?
Fortunately no. I did call my lawyer and he more or less laughed and said he couldn't imagine an angle where the plaintiff would walk away with any type of damages awarded to them.
 

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