No ADM

[Tob]

Yes, Ford can do something.

A dealer is free to set the retail price of the products it sells. A dealer can set the price at the MSRP or at a different price, as long as the dealer comes to that decision on its own. However, the manufacturer can decide not to use distributors that do not adhere to its MSRP.


In addition, he does not have to "specifically prove that they talked between themselves and decided them to sell them for $X." It could have been a verbal agreement. It could have been a written agreement. It could also be inferred from conduct.

 

[13COBRA]

Yes, Ford can do something.

A dealer is free to set the retail price of the products it sells. A dealer can set the price at the MSRP or at a different price, as long as the dealer comes to that decision on its own. However, the manufacturer can decide not to use distributors that do not adhere to its MSRP.


In addition, he does not have to "specifically prove that they talked between themselves and decided them to sell them for $X." It could have been a verbal agreement. It could have been a written agreement. It could also be inferred from conduct.

I'm not sure why we've butted heads recently so much..but whatever I guess.

Ford can't do anything. Ford WILL NOT get rid of the dealer body. Yes they can choose to, but no they won't. Therefore, since they can't control what dealers sell vehicles for (which you agreed with), Ford won't do anything in this case at all. More than likely they will call the dealers, explain to them the complaint and coach them how to handle any kind of investigation. If you think it'll go down any other way than that, you're kidding yourself.

If EVERY SINGLE dealer in the U.S. marked their cars up $25k and they were selling...the dealers were capitalizing on the market, they were not colluding to hold prices.


EDIT: I guess I should've bolded key words so you wouldn't miss them since you were so nice to do that for me.

 

[Beernuts]

I have no problem with dealers selling cars for whatever they want. Many of the dealers I called simply stated that they were asking $10-20k over, which I'm fine with - it was a 20 second phone call, no harm, no foul.

What I have a problem with is when a car is advertised on their website (and in one case also on Autotrader) at MSRP, and then I'm told a different price because "we talk to all the other area dealers and no one is selling for less than XX,XXX."

In another case, I confirmed the price was MSRP over the phone and set up an appointment for the next day since it was close to closing time. When I arrived for my appointment I was told by the sales manager that they "could not sell it to me at MSRP because you cant buy one at that price anywhere, we checked." That's really what set me off and started all of this. The GM ended up having to calm me down after I chewed the sales manager out for wasting my time. He at least apologized and admitted that they screwed up.

Think of it this way, every time some hot new phone/gadget comes out, does Best Buy, Amazon, etc jack the price up when they get down to the last few in stock? Of course not, people would be furious. So why is it acceptable in this industry (regardless if its "legal" or not)?

 

[13COBRA]

I have no problem with dealers selling cars for whatever they want. Many of the dealers I called simply stated that they were asking $10-20k over, which I'm fine with - it was a 20 second phone call, no harm, no foul.

What I have a problem with is when a car is advertised on their website (and in one case also on Autotrader) at MSRP, and then I'm told a different price because "we talk to all the other area dealers and no one is selling for less than XX,XXX."

Again, not colluding. Obviously they were in the dark about what the cars were bringing. Instead of throwing a fit, you could have explained how several people on this forum have purchased at or below MSRP and that you would be willing to purchase at MSRP today. I'm not saying you would've walked away with a car, but I also know that anytime two grown men start arguing, neither are going to win. You won't get a deal, and they won't sell a car; it begins to be a pride battle.

Secondly, Autotrader and Cars.com are notorious for having EVERY VEHICLE marked at MSRP. A lot of dealers don't take the time to manually update the prices, they allow the computer to pull the MSRP and price it at that. There is a disclaimer on the site that explains this.

In another case, I confirmed the price was MSRP over the phone and set up an appointment for the next day since it was close to closing time. When I arrived for my appointment I was told by the sales manager that they "could not sell it to me at MSRP because you cant buy one at that price anywhere, we checked." That's really what set me off and started all of this. The GM ended up having to calm me down after I chewed the sales manager out for wasting my time. He at least apologized and admitted that they screwed up.

If my guys would have promised it to you at MSRP, I would've sold it to you for that. Now, being me, I would've had them send me an email that they would sell it at MSRP before I wasted my time going in there...but I'm very conservative in taking someone's word.

Think of it this way, every time some hot new phone/gadget comes out, does Best Buy, Amazon, etc jack the price up when they get down to the last few in stock? Of course not, people would be furious. So why is it acceptable in this industry (regardless if its "legal" or not)?

Funny you say that. When a new phone comes out it's priced at $XXX for the initial rush. After the initial rush has died down and it's been out for a month or so, the prices drops. So would you like Ford to increase the MSRP to $XX,XXX only to send out new window stickers in 6 months to drop the price?

 

[Beernuts]

Secondly, Autotrader and Cars.com are notorious for having EVERY VEHICLE marked at MSRP. A lot of dealers don't take the time to manually update the prices, they allow the computer to pull the MSRP and price it at that. There is a disclaimer on the site that explains this.

Again, you sound exactly like a sleazeball car dealer. "Oh we aren't responsible for prices we advertise online!! Didnt you see the disclaimer?? Hahaha"

Give me a break.

 

[13COBRA]

Again, you sound exactly like a sleazeball car dealer. "Oh we aren't responsible for prices we advertise online!! Didnt you see the disclaimer?? Hahaha"

Give me a break.

You ignored the part about me saying if one of my guys said we'd sell it at MSRP, I would honor that.

Please, bitch and complain a little more. Again, sorry you haven't purchased a car at MSRP yet. Should've called me.

Section 1, subsection B of the Autotrader Visitor Agreement

The material that appears on the Autotrader Sites is for general informational purposes only. While we aim to provide a site that is useful, be mindful that the Autotrader Sites may, from time to time, contain errors. The Autotrader Sites includes materials and information collected from and provided by third parties that we may not have evaluated or reviewed. We make no guarantees regarding the accuracy, completeness, timeliness, or reliability of any of the materials or information on the Autotrader Sites, and you should not rely on it without independent verification.

 

[Chris!]

^ every site has the same type of disclaimer.

Here is how it works. Ford sends new car prices at Msrp directly to the dealers DMS. That DMS sends it directly to the 3rd party sites, no filter.

It's not a sleazeball move. It's a computer data feed error, and the 3rd party sites know it happens, and have disclaimers for it- for that reason

It works the other way too. For example in my market right now there is a ford dealer with a 15 f150 listed at $42860 on autotrader. I got a quote for $34890 when I called. Is it collusion that I can save $8k at 5 different dealers, and the pricing on autotrader was wrong? No. No it's not

The dealer DMS just automatically sends the Msrp. And in this case, it worked in my favor

So it goes both ways.

For the record- Nick, 13Cobra, sold a friend of mine a GT350 at sticker. He's kept his word, even when there are 3rd party brokers offering him more.

Data errors happen.

The prices aren't collusion, they are unfortunately market driven and market based. Go to a snowy market with a tiny dealer. Show up with cash or great credit. Bet you'll pay MSRP. Why? Cause that the market

Not every dealer is a slime ball. Not every thing you read on the Internet is true.

 

[Tob]

I'm not sure why we've butted heads recently so much..but whatever I guess.

Ford can't do anything. Ford WILL NOT get rid of the dealer body. Yes they can choose to, but no they won't. Therefore, since they can't control what dealers sell vehicles for (which you agreed with), Ford won't do anything in this case at all. More than likely they will call the dealers, explain to them the complaint and coach them how to handle any kind of investigation. If you think it'll go down any other way than that, you're kidding yourself.

If EVERY SINGLE dealer in the U.S. marked their cars up $25k and they were selling...the dealers were capitalizing on the market, they were not colluding to hold prices.


EDIT: I guess I should've bolded key words so you wouldn't miss them since you were so nice to do that for me.

The bolding was with respect to counter arguments you have made - I thought you'd realize that. My apologies.

Once again, Ford can do something if they so choose. I never stated anything about Ford "getting rid of the dealer body" so you can toss that straw man by the wayside. Therefore your conclusion is flawed - sorry. And nobody ever argued that Ford would or would not "coach" dealers so I'm sorry but I'm kidding nobody. Again, nice straw man.

 

[03cobra#694]

I really don't want to be the party pooper as this is a interesting topic, but please watch the name calling.

 

[Beernuts]

To be honest, I quit reading after the disclaimer part as I was heading out the door. But yes, good on you for selling at MSRP.

And I understand its an automated process, but its a poor excuse IMO. Maybe its not intentional, but it certainly is lazy and frustrating to a buyer. Wouldnt dealers want their vehicles to be listed at the most accurate prices so they can attract customers? If I have a truck listed at 42860 and I'm willing to sell for less, aren't I going to lose sales by not having the correct price out there for people to see? Why is that too much to ask? Just sayin.

 

[13COBRA]

To be honest, I quit reading after the disclaimer part as I was heading out the door. But yes, good on you for selling at MSRP.

And I understand its an automated process, but its a poor excuse IMO. Maybe its not intentional, but it certainly is lazy and frustrating to a buyer. Wouldnt dealers want their vehicles to be listed at the most accurate prices so they can attract customers? If I have a truck listed at 42860 and I'm willing to sell for less, aren't I going to lose sales by not having the correct price out there for people to see? Why is that too much to ask? Just sayin.

That truck that lists for 42 today, I could sell for 34,567 this afternoon..or tomorrow if rebates change I could sell it for 35,567 or 33,567.

To manually update it every few days for hundreds of vehicles in inventory would be ridiculous.

All trim levels of trucks have different rebates and mark up percentages as well.

 

[Chris!]

To be honest, I quit reading after the disclaimer part as I was heading out the door. But yes, good on you for selling at MSRP.

And I understand its an automated process, but its a poor excuse IMO. Maybe its not intentional, but it certainly is lazy and frustrating to a buyer. Wouldnt dealers want their vehicles to be listed at the most accurate prices so they can attract customers? If I have a truck listed at 42860 and I'm willing to sell for less, aren't I going to lose sales by not having the correct price out there for people to see? Why is that too much to ask? Just sayin.

I ask my clients this every day. Why don't you list cars for the price you're willing to sell?

Answer "cause I want them to call or come in and get the price, I don't want them to go to another dealer and just undercut me by $100 and I never got a shot"

While I totally understand that logic. For every 2 customers that do that, 5 don't. Tripping over dollars to pick up Pennies.

 

[Chris!]

That truck that lists for 42 today, I could sell for 34,567 this afternoon..or tomorrow if rebates change I could sell it for 35,567 or 33,567.

To manually update it every few days for hundreds of vehicles in inventory would be ridiculous.

All trim levels of trucks have different rebates and mark up percentages as well.

There is software that does this for you. Just sayin

 

[13COBRA]

There is software that does this for you. Just sayin

I know I know. Homenet use to offer it, but they don't anymore.

 

[Chris!]

Once again, Ford can do something if they so choose. I never stated anything about Ford "getting rid of the dealer body" so you can toss that straw man by the wayside. Therefore your conclusion is flawed - sorry. And nobody ever argued that Ford would or would not "coach" dealers so I'm sorry but I'm kidding nobody. Again, nice straw man.

After looking through a franchise agreement, and trust me I spent most of 2007 reading Ford's due to what was happening at my place. It's really hard for them to do something about it with how it's all drawn up.

It's a turn and earn policy, and that's in your agreement. The more mustangs you sell. The more mustangs you get.

If they pull allocation from you, which is all they really can do as recourse. You have recourse to not take allocation of other cars.

For example we wanted a 2006 Ford GT. Which we sold at sticker btw. To get it? We took 3 stick, no AC, rwd, snot green, and puke orange regular cab, 2wd, bench vinyl seat Rangers. 2 "pony package" mustangs V6s. One of which was screaming Yellow with tan guts. So we probably made $20k on the GT, and lost $12k on those cars. I would have been better off having 3 F150s for the floor plan price of the GT, and made the same money.

Guess what. They took 1 of the Rangers and the yellow mustang back a year later when they consolidated the franchise

While that doesn't exactly fit what is happening here, what I'm saying is. They can **** with you. But you can also **** with them. They need to sell mustangs. And if sandy springs or galpin ford can sell 20 Of these things each, they get 20. And if they have 20, they'll charge whatever they want, because they become the market.

Is it right. No. But that's how it's drawn up.

Again, ford can't do anything about it. It sucks. But they really can't

 

[Chris!]

I know I know. Homenet use to offer it, but they don't anymore.

AIS rebates can do it, and I believe you can link it through vinsolutions. Also, some of the 3rd party sites have a price markdown feature that automatically adjusts the rebates as they receive them from the manufacture. And if the parent company (cox) owns the rebate company (AIS) the customer can get the real price live.

 

[13COBRA]

AIS rebates can do it, and I believe you can link it through vinsolutions. Also, some of the 3rd party sites have a price markdown feature that automatically adjusts the rebates as they receive them from the manufacture. And if the parent company (cox) owns the rebate company (AIS) the customer can get the real price live.

Correct. Cargurus does that.

We have Reynolds. Familiar with a company that works through them?

 

[Chris!]

Correct. Cargurus does that.

We have Reynolds. Familiar with a company that works through them?

Let me ask around

 

[Tob]

After looking through a franchise agreement, and trust me I spent most of 2007 reading Ford's due to what was happening at my place. It's really hard for them to do something about it with how it's all drawn up.

It's a turn and earn policy, and that's in your agreement. The more mustangs you sell. The more mustangs you get.

If they pull allocation from you, which is all they really can do as recourse. You have recourse to not take allocation of other cars.

For example we wanted a 2006 Ford GT. Which we sold at sticker btw. To get it? We took 3 stick, no AC, rwd, snot green, and puke orange regular cab, 2wd, bench vinyl seat Rangers. 2 "pony package" mustangs V6s. One of which was screaming Yellow with tan guts. So we probably made $20k on the GT, and lost $12k on those cars. I would have been better off having 3 F150s for the floor plan price of the GT, and made the same money.

Guess what. They took 1 of the Rangers and the yellow mustang back a year later when they consolidated the franchise

While that doesn't exactly fit what is happening here, what I'm saying is. They can **** with you. But you can also **** with them. They need to sell mustangs. And if sandy springs or galpin ford can sell 20 Of these things each, they get 20. And if they have 20, they'll charge whatever they want, because they become the market.

Is it right. No. But that's how it's drawn up.

Again, ford can't do anything about it. It sucks. But they really can't

You're a level headed man and I absolutely respect that.

I studied a Ford franchise agreement recently and was surprised at the amount of ambiguity and interpretation left open. If there's a legal challenge regarding some of it both sides would probably bet heavily that they were right.

Let's be clear about this - Ford choosing to not do anything is not the same as saying they can't. "Can't" would be by choice and not by legal mandate. Everyone knows this yet some choose to disregard it when formulating some fairly grandiose assumptions.

 

[mike.s]

i saw one advertised below msrp on autotrader. went to the dealer website and they had it at the same price so i called and spoke with a salesman. i asked if the price was accurate and he said yes provided i put 20% down. i said no problem here is my credit card for a deposit to hold the car. that i was 1500 miles away and would fly in the following week to pick it up. he said good deal. in disbelief i asked him twice if the car was mine and they wouldnt sell it to anyone else, he said it was mine both times. recieved a call from the gm the next day that i couldnt have the car, that it was sold but i could buy the other one they had for 10k over. politely told him no thanks. then got a call from the dealer the following week asking why i hadnt come picked the car up.