NX with BBR tune vs N.O. with AED tune?

[v8stang]

Thanks for the heads up. Is it a forum discount?
If not, can you pm it to me? Thanks

Edit: nevermind. Just checked and remembered that they have it for $100 more than everywhere else.

 

[v8stang]

The more I look at this picture, the more obvious it becomes that this kit is hidden really well under the stock cover.

 

[9secWS6]

Heres a pic of my install with the Boss , I think it would work well under a stock intake cover though.

 

[Shaun@AED]

Hey Shaun, so do you recommend running a BAP with nitrous on e85?

Not a bad idea.
Just have it wired to turn on with nitrous arming switch instead of a boost (Hobbs) switch. No need to run it all the time.
Also, we've had issues at 21+ volts on some cars with the sock getting sucked into the pump causing fuel starvation. Some are adjustable, some aren't so be aware.

 

[cbrtrx]

Heres a pic of my install with the Boss , I think it would work well under a stock intake cover though.

I must have seen about 30 pics of your setup now in the last 15 different nitrous threads. I know you're really proud of it but I think everyone has seen it already...

Sorry I sound like an ass, I have an nx kit myself but I ran the lines much differently then yours. In my opinion the way you have the lines ran it dosent make the kit look very clean at all, once again just my opinion. Its obviously not my car so it dosent matter what I think, just thinking out loud.

 

[9secWS6]

I must have seen about 30 pics of your setup now in the last 15 different nitrous threads. I know you're really proud of it but I think everyone has seen it already...

Sorry I sound like an ass, I have an nx kit myself but I ran the lines much differently then yours. In my opinion the way you have the lines ran it dosent make the kit look very clean at all, once again just my opinion. Its obviously not my car so it dosent matter what I think, just thinking out loud.

;-)

 

[cbrtrx]

;-)

I still think you have a bad ass ride running very good times.

 

[Sof Top]

I must have seen about 30 pics of your setup now in the last 15 different nitrous threads. I know you're really proud of it but I think everyone has seen it already...

Sorry I sound like an ass, I have an nx kit myself but I ran the lines much differently then yours. In my opinion the way you have the lines ran it dosent make the kit look very clean at all, once again just my opinion. Its obviously not my car so it dosent matter what I think, just thinking out loud.

Pics of how you ran your lines?

 

[90coupe5oh]

Be careful doing that. These cars have a wideband, trying to control the fueling through jets is not effective on these cars. You have to also command the correct fueling in the tune. Otherwise the car will just shut the injectors down to create the proper fueling. Good luck.

100% agree! With these cars there is WAY more to a nitrous tune then just pulling timing. Globally is not how you wanna pull it also because the tune can add a ton of timing under certain conditions. A proper nitrous tune would have the commanded A/F dropped....very important. With the shot you want to spray I would highly suggest getting a dedicated nitrous tune!

It seems to be working so far but I could be wrong, I'll put it back on the dyno and double check everything though just to be safe. I'm use to 79-04 stuff haha, they're simple

Shaun, do you believe these above statements to be true?

 

[JUIC3D]

I've posted a data log with high lighted lean spike in another Nitrous thread.
Posting from my phone or I would search / link here.

Most of you are not logging the correct parameters to see the lean condition, or using a Dyno wide band with A/F pickup in the tail pipe which is an averaged via Dyno software. These Cars O2 sensors also do their best to compensate for an lean conditions. Monitoring actual lambda with fuel trims vs commanded will tell the tale.

And for the record, I am not a Nitrous Outlet dealer.
I'm not posting in these nitrous threads to make a buck, not do I want to bash any vendors.
I'm posting to help educate the masses so they can be better informed.
Do a search for that data log screen shot I posted....it's clear as mud certain nitrous setups have issues.
Stating track times or Dyno numbers does not invalidate these issues BTW.

How many logs have you seen that displayed the lean condition to which you refer? Has every log you've seen with the lean condition had the exact same issues or is it only certain cars?

I don't disagree that a log you've seen showed a lean condition but that doesn't mean the kit is flawed or inferior to anything else on the market. If every log showed the same inherent lean condition then it would be a different story.

I run the NX plate kit and my fuel trims are 1.00 with no lean condition and my measured lambda is within .1 of commanded lambda at any point in the run.

In fact, once I switched to E85 I had to retune the car for the extra required fuel flow through the plate. On my motor tune, my fuel trims were .97-.99 but on nitrous, they were 1.05-1.07. Measured lambda was within .1 of commanded for both pulls so the car was getting the fuel it needed, but it was getting it through the injectors instead of the plate. Jetting the fuel pill up a couple sizes netted me perfect 1.00 fuel trims on both banks while measured lambda remained consistent.

That tells me the computer was seeing the leaner fueling with a too small of a fuel jet and adding the required fuel through the injectors to maintain the commanded lambda. Once I gave it the fuel it needed through the correct fuel jet, the fuel trims were dead on.

 

[try03venom]

pics of how you ran your lines?

+1

 

[try03venom]

Pressure safety switch if u run a BAP with nitrous prolly a good idea

 

[Shaun@AED]

How many logs have you seen that displayed the lean condition to which you refer? Has every log you've seen with the lean condition had the exact same issues or is it only certain cars?

I don't disagree that a log you've seen showed a lean condition but that doesn't mean the kit is flawed or inferior to anything else on the market. If every log showed the same inherent lean condition then it would be a different story.

I run the NX plate kit and my fuel trims are 1.00 with no lean condition and my measured lambda is within .1 of commanded lambda at any point in the run.

In fact, once I switched to E85 I had to retune the car for the extra required fuel flow through the plate. On my motor tune, my fuel trims were .97-.99 but on nitrous, they were 1.05-1.07. Measured lambda was within .1 of commanded for both pulls so the car was getting the fuel it needed, but it was getting it through the injectors instead of the plate. Jetting the fuel pill up a couple sizes netted me perfect 1.00 fuel trims on both banks while measured lambda remained consistent.

That tells me the computer was seeing the leaner fueling with a too small of a fuel jet and adding the required fuel through the injectors to maintain the commanded lambda. Once I gave it the fuel it needed through the correct fuel jet, the fuel trims were dead on.

EVERY NX log I have been sent that has the correct parameters logged has shown this lean condition. Depending on jetting I've seen between 7 and 15% lean.

The logs you sent me from your NX kit did not have the appropriate items logged. I sent you details after reviewing the logs you sent on how to do a proper 'test' log/run.

 

[JUIC3D]

EVERY NX log I have been sent that has the correct parameters logged has shown this lean condition. Depending on jetting I've seen between 7 and 15% lean.

The logs you sent me from your NX kit did not have the appropriate items logged. I sent you details after reviewing the logs you sent on how to do a proper 'test' log/run.

I remember that email. Would you still want to see all of this in a nitrous log?
I think "proper" is relative but that's a topic for another discussion.

RPM
Knock
Spark
Spark V2
Maf lb/min
Maf Frequency
Load as a fraction
Actual Throttle Angle
Intake Air Temp
Long Term Fuel Trims
Short Term Fuel Trims
Lambse B1/B2
Measured Air Fuel

I normally only log the bold items so I get better resolution on the scans.

 

[Need4Speed03]

EVERY NX log I have been sent that has the correct parameters logged has shown this lean condition. Depending on jetting I've seen between 7 and 15% lean.

The logs you sent me from your NX kit did not have the appropriate items logged. I sent you details after reviewing the logs you sent on how to do a proper 'test' log/run.

Who tuned these logs you have seen? Were the owners running a nitrous specific tune or were they just pulling timing from a handheld?

 

[Nitrous Outlet]

http://www.svtperformance.com/forums/2011-2014-mustangs-354/937542-nitrous-outlets-2011-5-0-coyote-nitrous-plate-system-install.html

 

[Shaun@AED]

I remember that email. Would you still want to see all of this in a nitrous log?
I think "proper" is relative but that's a topic for another discussion.

RPM
Knock
Spark
Spark V2
Maf lb/min
Maf Frequency
Load as a fraction
Actual Throttle Angle
Intake Air Temp
Long Term Fuel Trims
Short Term Fuel Trims
Lambse B1/B2
Measured Air Fuel

I normally only log the bold items so I get better resolution on the scans.

By 'Proper' I want to see the nitrous 'Hit' in the middle of a WOT pull. IE, start a WOT pull at 2K and hit the nitrous at 3K-4K. This will show what happens when the Nitrous Initially 'hits'.

Yes, log those parameters.

 

[JUIC3D]

By 'Proper' I want to see the nitrous 'Hit' in the middle of a WOT pull. IE, start a WOT pull at 2K and hit the nitrous at 3K-4K. This will show what happens when the Nitrous Initially 'hits'.

Yes, log those parameters.

Gotcha. Ok I'll see if I can get that done this week. I don't expect any surprises but it doesn't hurt to get other opinions about it. :beer:

 

[Shaun@AED]

Who tuned these logs you have seen? Were the owners running a nitrous specific tune or were they just pulling timing from a handheld?

Yes, but it does not matter. It's Target Lambda vs Actual. A properly designed Nitrous Kit will accurately spray fueling with nitrous and there should be very little variance in what the O2 sensors pick up. IE, there should not be a lean condition on the hit. This is an indication Nitrous is getting to the cylinders before the fuel. The interesting thing is both the NX and NO plates have the Solenoids on the TB plate, yet the NO plate does not exhibit a lean spike like the NX plate.

A 'Proper' Wet Nitrous kit will not need major tune changes.
IE, change Target Lambda, change Spark, and a few other *minor* things, but nothing for Tip-In fueling, or any Maf changes, etc.

Maf Curve is a measurement of airflow, this should not be changed for Nitrous as N2O does not increase airflow.

 

[JUIC3D]

Yes, but it does not matter. It's Target Lambda vs Actual. A properly designed Nitrous Kit will accurately spray fueling with nitrous and there should be very little variance in what the O2 sensors pick up. IE, there should not be a lean condition on the hit. This is an indication Nitrous is getting to the cylinders before the fuel. The interesting thing is both the NX and NO plates have the Solenoids on the TB plate, yet the NO plate does not exhibit a lean spike like the NX plate.

A 'Proper' Wet Nitrous kit will not need major tune changes.
IE, change Target Lambda, change Spark, and a few other *minor* things, but nothing for Tip-In fueling, or any Maf changes, etc.

Maf Curve is a measurement of airflow, this should not be changed for Nitrous as N2O does not increase airflow.

A few things:
1) The NX is the only kit to mount the noids on the plate. Every other kit, NO included, mounts the noids remotely and runs either hardlines or stainless steel lines.
2) Generally speaking, nitrous always arrives to the cylinders before the fuel resulting in a small lean spike. 1000psi vs 55psi; 1000psi wins the race every time. Unless the lean condition lasts for an extended period of time, this is not normally a concern. The only way to address it is to shorten the fuel line between the noid and the fogger or plate so the distance the liquid has to travel is shorter than the nitrous.


I agree on the tuning changes though. Dry kits, especially on these copperhead ecus, require a lot more finesse to have them work correctly.

Direct comparison pictures:

NO Kit:

NX Kit: