Hellion twin turbo vs. Paxton supercharger

[HELLION TURBO]

We get a fair number of questions asking to compare our 2011-2014 GT/Boss twin turbo kit vs. a Paxton centrifugal supercharger kit.

The main difference is the higher efficiency of a turbo vs. a belt driven supercharger. As shown in the attached dyno graph, the turbo, at a lower boost level, makes more peak power and, more importantly, more average power.

(The Paxton GT in this graph is equipped with long tube headers, off-road x pipe, straight through mufflers, Boss intake, and JLT cold air intake--a max effort supercharged combination with street tune---The Hellion Twin Turbo car used is equipped with a 3 inch off road Bassani exhaust with street tune)

Less boost means less load on the engine. Not only that, with a turbo, fuel efficiency is increased when not in boost. On the other hand, with a supercharger, the engine is driving a belt even when cruising--wasting power and decreasing fuel efficiency.

 

[Voltwings]

SOOOO much more at play there than just the power adders. Can the car hook? Can the driver drive? is the suspension right? is it tuned right? is it a max effort tune? Some drivers may be happy running their twin turbos at low boost, so does that make a supercharger "better" than their twin turbos since it makes more power, or vice versa? Do the cars weigh the same? Stick vs auto? Such a subjective comment to make.

Lol. The paxton kit car will get destroyed. This can't be a serious post.
Helion, what is the power difference when they are each at the same boost? Curious what the percentage difference is.

This is slightly subjective as well, if you run either compressor out of their effeciency range (too much or even too little boost,) the numbers will be misleading, especially because boost =/ airflow. I've tuned a 4 cylinder equipped with a 6262 going for 600 whp, which needs about 40 psi out of that turbo. That same turbo however, at only 19 psi was barely outperforming a significantly smaller turbo... Obviously on a twin turbo v8 your effeciency margins are MUCH closer together, but my point remains the same, that it's kind of apples to oranges.

 

[bullittrevor]

People really ask what the advantages of a TT setup are vs a paxton? Lol..seems kinda obvious

 

[D.T.R]

Does anybody buy blowers anymore?
seems to me like in the last couple of yrs the v8 crowd has FINALLY seen the light... and realized how much more efficient and fast turbos will always be over blowers.

 

[lovebread]

Lol. The paxton kit car will get destroyed. This can't be a serious post.

According to that graph it is clearly "destroyed".

As Voltwings already said, there is so much more to this than funneling as much money as you can into the engine.

Take the same style of car, same mods minus engine, same transmission and run them on the same day, post results.

 

[Mach828]

This is slightly subjective as well, if you run either compressor out of their effeciency range (too much or even too little boost,) the numbers will be misleading, especially because boost =/ airflow. I've tuned a 4 cylinder equipped with a 6262 going for 600 whp, which needs about 40 psi out of that turbo. That same turbo however, at only 19 psi was barely outperforming a significantly smaller turbo... Obviously on a twin turbo v8 your effeciency margins are MUCH closer together, but my point remains the same, that it's kind of apples to oranges.

Its mainly for curiosity. Of course its not a perfect comparison. But we also aren't comparing a Novi 1200 to a 90mm turbo @ 20lbs. An exaggeration, but you get my point.

 

[Voltwings]

Its mainly for curiosity. Of course its not a perfect comparison. But we also aren't comparing a Novi 1200 to a 90mm turbo @ 20lbs. An exaggeration, but you get my point.

Fair enough.

 

[S197OnSpray]

While not a Hellion kit I've had both twin turbos (current) and the Paxton (previous) on the exact same car with zero other changes. It's not even close, the Paxton felt so weak under the curve. The Paxton really needed rpm to get moving with any sort of authority. The twins make power for days over the entire rpm band. I would never put a centri on anything I own after going turbo. Turbos make daily driving fun, I had to pretty much be racing around town to have any sort of fun in the Paxton. I run the twins at 8lbs and I ran the Paxton at 9.5lbs, the twins were up over 100ftlbs over the entire graph and while the peak power was pretty close the twins made the number way earlier in the rpm range and held it for longer up top. I made more torque and average power with the twins on a stingy Mustang dyno than I did with the Paxton on a dynojet.

 

[Deespeed99]

Can you post a graph of the single kit?

 

[MRSUPRA]

How about a comparison with the Hellion single turbo kit and the Paxton since they are closer in price?

 

[4VFTW]

I dont think even Hellion wants to talk about their single kit.

 

[stagedz]

Turbos are awesome and I think most people will concede a twin turbo is more efficient and powerful...the biggest holdback is not the power delivery, but the cost is just soo prohibitive vs a blower. Nice post by Hellion but again I really only think the reason people would and do choose a centri is cost.

 

[4VFTW]

it takes 125hp to turn a Paxton?

 

[Mike Rousch]

That sure is a pretty dyno graph.

Maybe putting your money where your mouth is and proving it on the strip is a better comparison of the two supercharger systems?

According to that graph it is clearly "destroyed".

As Voltwings already said, there is so much more to this than funneling as much money as you can into the engine.

Take the same style of car, same mods minus engine, same transmission and run them on the same day, post results.

I do not get into these arguments but i just had to answer your question for you. ( this is not putting you down in any way Beefcake so dont take it that way ). Look at Coyote modified, both race cars, same motor. Hellion single turbo 67mm (i think) with a air to air cooler on one, against a JT trim ( again i think ) on another. Someone correct me if i am wrong but there is your answer. Let one of there twin kits in that class and there is ZERO chance of any vortech/paxton car running with it.

 

[lovebread]

On what earth are comparing twin turbo systems to belt driven low cfm supercharger head units?

There are a lot of pros and cons for effectively the same "style" of boost. Throwing up a dyno graph fails to mention how complicated the install, tuning, and cost of testing is for the everyday consumer. For everyone on this forums and guest browsers without input, this does not do a service for a real comparison of the two kits.

 

[Shaun@AED]

it takes 125hp to turn a Paxton?

Actually it can be significantly MORE.

We can verify this by data logging lb/min airflow with a properly calibrated tune. (Correct injector data, Speed Density calibration, etc)
The typical Paxton 3.8" Upper pulley log will crest 80lb/min and crack 700RWHP on my dyno with E85 (M6).
All else being equal, with the same Air fuel, timing, and E85 on a TVS/whipple at the same RWHP will be within 4-5lbs/min (lower) & produce less boost (more efficient)
A Turbo at 80lb/min on the same fuel, timing, and fueling will be hard pressed to NOT exceed 850RWHP. More efficient Turbo setups can be much higher. I've seen Pump Gas turbo applications make 10x the RWHP as the lb/min logged.

Of course you need to realize each compressor/turbine will have it's efficiency landings and going out side of peak efficiency will make the power adder take MORE HP to turn. (PD blower, Centrifical, or Turbo, does not matter) This is why it is best to fit the correct size compressor/turbine to the application and intended use/power.
IE a P1SC is not the correct blower for a 496 BBC, and an F1R is not the correct blower for a 650RWHP Coyote.

 

[beefcake]

only because Paxton was mentioned, and i was mentioned will I comment.

everyone knows in general turbos have less loss than a supercharger does. Bang for the buck, we can install, turn key @ 6199 a Paxton putting down close to 600 rwhp.

for 70% of the guys, this is all you will ever need. for the guys that want to do more, $6650, and on a race gas tune, make close to 700 with a good tune. I think the twin kit is around $8500 (without installation)

like I always say "how fast do you want to spend". for a twin kit and installation, you could put in forged pistons / rods, e85 fuel system, and make 750/800 all day long.

this debate will never end lol

I do not get into these arguments but i just had to answer your question for you. ( this is not putting you down in any way Beefcake so dont take it that way ). Look at Coyote modified, both race cars, same motor. Hellion single turbo 67mm (i think) with a air to air cooler on one, against a JT trim ( again i think ) on another. Someone correct me if i am wrong but there is your answer. Let one of there twin kits in that class and there is ZERO chance of any vortech/paxton car running with it.

none taken

just like any heads up class, they look at where the rules are for a particular combo, next year the rules will change probably a smaller exhaust wheel, or smaller turbo in general.

we told them at the beginning of the year, the turbo was gonna run away with it. just like the jt vs f1a, the f1a is rated at 100 more horse and 125 more cfm's than the jt. The jt is at the biggest disadvantage by the rules. They ysi would be more on par, it flows 25 more cfms than the f1a, but we can't run it. would be a more fair comparison.

but, I'm a vortech guy, so that's what we'll run.

 

[Bud]

I do not get into these arguments but i just had to answer your question for you. ( this is not putting you down in any way Beefcake so dont take it that way ). Look at Coyote modified, both race cars, same motor. Hellion single turbo 67mm (i think) with a air to air cooler on one, against a JT trim ( again i think ) on another. Someone correct me if i am wrong but there is your answer. Let one of there twin kits in that class and there is ZERO chance of any vortech/paxton car running with it.

First year rules in a new class may not be the best way to compare combos for the masses on the streets. I'm sure it does help sell product though Quite a few differences between those cars than just the power adder also. Year of car, engine control (stock vs. aftermarket), weight (not sure if Terry got down to class minimums yet), etc. Are they both running glides currently?

I still vote turbos ftw though. The paxton kit is cheap initially but then you start adding things like headers, pulleys, tq booster kits, etc and the price adds up. Then you factor in the efficiency of the turbos vs. the large parasitic loss of a blower and it's easy to pick which is better.

 

[BV600]

Actually it can be significantly MORE.

We can verify this by data logging lb/min airflow with a properly calibrated tune. (Correct injector data, Speed Density calibration, etc)
The typical Paxton 3.8" Upper pulley log will crest 80lb/min and crack 700RWHP on my dyno with E85 (M6).
All else being equal, with the same Air fuel, timing, and E85 on a TVS/whipple at the same RWHP will be within 4-5lbs/min (lower) & produce less boost (more efficient)
A Turbo at 80lb/min on the same fuel, timing, and fueling will be hard pressed to NOT exceed 850RWHP. More efficient Turbo setups can be much higher. I've seen Pump Gas turbo applications make 10x the RWHP as the lb/min logged.

Of course you need to realize each compressor/turbine will have it's efficiency landings and going out side of peak efficiency will make the power adder take MORE HP to turn. (PD blower, Centrifical, or Turbo, does not matter) This is why it is best to fit the correct size compressor/turbine to the application and intended use/power.
IE a P1SC is not the correct blower for a 496 BBC, and an F1R is not the correct blower for a 650RWHP Coyote.

Definetly makes sense Im seeing 87lb/min and doubt Im cracking 700whp due to procharger using it all up

 

[poof100]

just like any heads up class, they look at where the rules are for a particular combo, next year the rules will change probably a smaller exhaust wheel, or smaller turbo in general.

we told them at the beginning of the year, the turbo was gonna run away with it. just like the jt vs f1a, the f1a is rated at 100 more horse and 125 more cfm's than the jt. The jt is at the biggest disadvantage by the rules. They ysi would be more on par, it flows 25 more cfms than the f1a, but we can't run it. would be a more fair comparison.

but, I'm a vortech guy, so that's what we'll run.

Isn't your combo still 200+ lbs over the minimum weight? (And trust me, I know it's hard to get down, no skinny jeans here lol) Are any of the blower guys at the Min weight yet? Jumping to reduce the Compressor and/or Turbine size is a little premature IMHO.

Back to the Unicorns.