I would like to see more fuel on a boosted application. .82-.83 Lambda is what I command my car N/A! that is lean on these cars. It looks as if you were running out of injector, the pump duty cycle was not maxed out so that looked fine. The beginning of the pull the car was at .79-.80 which is what it needs to be boosted and then it drops to .83-.85 towards the end, fuel was dropping the whole pull. Also if you look at the pull the car was pulling timing throughout the whole pass on the knock sensor, it wasn't much at just 1* if you would have pulled .50 to 1* globally it would have not shown knock on the log.
Another dead Coyote - VMP TVS
- Thread starter techwerkz
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Timing is much higher than my VMP tune sees. I see 14.5-15 on 9psi. Hate it for you
Sorry to hear about that man!
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I don't think Jon or Ken lock the timing and afr. From Jon himself when he tuned my car " I command xxx amount of afr and timing but the knock sensors are going to add or take what they want". What I am wondering from the tuners standpoint can these cars be set at 15° timing and not be allowed to add timing? And only be able to take some based off afr and knock? And afr after being commanded can it stay that way?
I think that there is a maximum amount of timing that you can allow. Jon was probably speaking for a na setup on that quote.
I also think that mid range timing is even more important of pda d turbo cars than on centris because they are making full boost way earlier than any centrifugal. Which will increase cylininder presure and risk the integrity of a piston.
I also think that mid range timing is even more important of pda d turbo cars than on centris because they are making full boost way earlier than any centrifugal. Which will increase cylininder presure and risk the integrity of a piston.
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We really need tuners and especially VMP to comment here on the datalog above. My TVS is being installed as I write this. I was planning to load VMP 82mm tune right after the install of my 575hp kit from roush.
Um no bud I am supercharged and this was his exact words , hence why I quoted him! My cars first pull was a commanded 14° of timing and it went to 16 on its own based of iat and knock and afr. So no it's not just n/a .. the same concept works when boosted. Just wondering why they leave the computer to adjust after.commanding certain things knowing the weak tolerances the stock ringlands will and can handle. Seems like more motors will survive longer if it was just set and always was what it was set at.
That sucks and I am sorry to hear this. I see your car was getting alot of knock as you reved 3rd to 7200 and saw 19* timing up until 6800 than went down to 17* , but it looks like it was running really lean from 7000-7200 ( 12.3-12.4 a/f ) and it looks like most your knock and problems happened in 4th gear, you were getting alot of knock with only 14* of timing. I see you took ol girl up to 130mph.
You are missing part of it. That's why things can get confusing when you quote someone. They may not have told you exactly how it works.
Yes, the knock sensors can take away and add timing. But the part you are missing is there is a max overall timing set that it won't go over. At least that is how we handle it in our tunes. Everyone does it differently.
You also have to understand that just because you see a difference in timing, doesn't mean it's the knock sensors. There are MANY factors that go into what the final timing number is. air temp, coolant temps and the list goes on and on. It would be dangerous to lock in any timing as the proper timing needed will change.
The proper way to do it is to set a total max under any circumstances it won't go over.
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Well it seems that these cars are exceeding what was commanded in some cases. I understand what Jon was talking about and how it all goes into account. Just wondering if the ability of the adaptive learning can be limited so things can't or won't get out of control and a motor is suffering the consequences ?
I don't think this is the proper place to discuss this and really didn't want to chime in at all but since we were brought up I felt I should. A big tuning debate in a thread about a hurt car isn't fair to anyone.
God damn these threads are getting common now. Guess more people are boosted now and pushing the stock internals too far.
All out n/a build is looking better everyday.
-Thomas
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All out n/a build is looking better everyday.
-Thomas
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Because n/a coyotes don't have any issues? :??:
I disagree. It is still a big mystery how far the stock coyote can be pushed.
It is for everyone's benefit to learn about others experiences and have an idea about how far they can push the limits.
sucks man i know the feeling
CPRsm
Active Member
Exactly. Peak torque is where you will find the highest cylinder pressure. Boost earlier will make it worse. Timing is down to 10-11 on 8psi and don't let the knock sensors add anything until higher rpm for that reason.
A properly tuned built n/a motor will not have any issues.
I said all out n/a build. Maybe that didnt make any sense to you, but i would assume built.
-Thomas
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It's the VMP TVS setup, so it comes with ID 72lb injectors, JLT Big Air, ported inlet and inlet elbow, and the AFCO. Duty cycle was logged.
If you look there are portions at 19* that is adding .5 of timing. For the most part it was pulling.
I didn't feel donation, but you might not. Once it's tore down the real cause of failure will show.
My first tune only hit 14.5 max. Not sure what happened, but like it was said there are a lot of variables to the timing table. I didn't happen to log load on this pull which I should have. Always always log load.
Debate away. That's what these websites are for right? Everyone gets all butthurt and secretive anymore. No one wants to step on anyone's toes. When that happens it just makes it harder for those trying to learn and look at information that can be useful to their application.
It's interesting to see someone else post their timing going out to lunch right before their motor let go as well. The only parameter I wasn't logging was load, which is something I normally always log. Very possibly she gave up prior to the timing spiking. However when it shifted into 4th it was back to 14.5. Something went crazy for a bit, and honestly who knows what it could have been.
As far as the power level and boost ... I don't think it was too much. This setup with the a max of 14.5* it saw originally and a little leaner AFR would have been safe. The tune was usually around 12-13* with the KS pulling 1-2 degrees. I like tunes that have less timing even if you're going to go a little on the lean side. Would more injector or a BAP be beneficial here? I would probably think so. Maybe this is the information we can determine and Justin can update the package to make it mandatory to order those with a smaller pulley. It's already offered as addons to his kit, but I don't think anyone really thought a 79mm was going to push it far enough to create an issue.
Again that's why I posted this. I am not vilifying Justin or VMP. They have been 100% helpful. He goes out of his way to answer questions I had during the install. I am here just looking to see if we can further pinpoint what may have happened. There is a lot of knowledge on this forum, might as well use it.
Far from true. There have been many N/A cars to have issues. Not all were tuning issues. If you're pushing any motor that is engineered for one task to another level there is the possibility of failure.
In my case my car had 27k on it ... it's far from tired or ragged. I've seen 180k LS1 motors get hit with 150 shots and be happy. That said, sometimes shit happens.
I would have to say a properly tuned BUILT N/A motor would be less likely to have a failure.
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