You are acting like Greg is a regular customer who doesn't know the difference from a H beam to I beam rod. He choose those parts for a reason (which no one here would know unless they ask him and shouldn't make assumptions) and if MMR doesn't use those products regularly in their own motors how are they to know they would fail (Again an assumption that they knew these rods would fail). I normally am the one who's on top of MMR because of their shady and misleading practices (My opinion not necessarily true in all cases) but I can't see any reason in this situation that they should be blamed at all....I mean hell aren't H beam rods only rated to 700-800HP in some cases and people push them to 1000-1200HP with no issues at times? Most of the times ratings are just to prevent people from coming back saying you told me I could make 1000HP but realistically 1000HP is the breaking point...
First Startup - MMR Twin Turbo Pro Mod Coyote fired up on stand
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You are acting like Greg is a regular customer who doesn't know the difference from a H beam to I beam rod. He choose those parts for a reason (which no one here would know unless they ask him and shouldn't make assumptions) and if MMR doesn't use those products regularly in their own motors how are they to know they would fail (Again an assumption that they knew these rods would fail). I normally am the one who's on top of MMR because of their shady and misleading practices (My opinion not necessarily true in all cases) but I can't see any reason in this situation that they should be blamed at all....I mean hell aren't H beam rods only rated to 700-800HP in some cases and people push them to 1000-1200HP with no issues at times? Most of the times ratings are just to prevent people from coming back saying you told me I could make 1000HP but realistically 1000HP is the breaking point...
So where would you place blame? MMR for building something like this with sub par parts, Greg for picking those rods, or Manley for not handeling twice what they are rated at?
If the customer is a shop owner that has made lots of power in the past you have to put some confidence in their parts choice. MMR does put the same rods in their shortblock that is rated up to 1500hp (guessing at more than 6k rpm) so that is interesting, would make a person think they should have lived to that point by MMR's standards if the failure wasn't due to hydrolock.
Hands down the Manley Billet I beam, the rod cross section is much thicker, bottom line, we could not make anything over 1200HP with the oliver without bending them, we tried them 3 times, we switched to the Manley and the same set is still running in Don and Dana cooks engine to this day making over 1800HP !!
We offer 2 versions, the 14319 and the 14321, the first part # is good up to 1400, the second should be used from there up. Both include ARP 2000 bolts, both are 7/16 (BIG bolts).
BTW, we have the best prices on Manley rods - guaranteed- just call!
MMR
805 383 4130
MMR
This was from a Gt500 thread on 2-22-2012
We offer 2 versions, the 14319 and the 14321, the first part # is good up to 1400, the second should be used from there up. Both include ARP 2000 bolts, both are 7/16 (BIG bolts).
BTW, we have the best prices on Manley rods - guaranteed- just call!
MMR
805 383 4130
MMR
This was from a Gt500 thread on 2-22-2012
:bowdown::bowdown::bowdown:
Those are gt500 rods, where manley does offer a heavier/tougher rod for the 1500hp rating. Not the same as 4.6/5.0 rods, manley doesn't offer a heavier version for our cars
I would say nowhere. It's big HP.. stuff happens.
Are there any aluminum rods for these motors?
I didn't know that, but what I did see is our standard manley I beams use the 7/16 arp 2000 rod bolts just like the upgraded GT500 uses.
In regards to the rod he supplied it was a 14318 from Manley, which, in our opinion is the best Rod available for 1500HP or less. Which brings us to the point of why did the rod break just under 1500HP? It is difficult to say and we will have a better idea once we have the parts here later today to inspect, we have been building engines using this rod for over 10 years that have made over 1500 RWHP which leads us to believe something else happened.
Our preliminary theory is that the engine dropped a cylinder (started to miss) due to a faulty coil about mid run - in he dyno run you hear the engine change tone when they start to load the dyno cell. This cylinder in our opinion started to miss at this point, as the boost rampped in quickly the loss of power was not noticed (1 cylinder only make up for 12.5% of the engines power. As the dyno run progressed the dead cylinder started to fill with fuel (it cannot escape through the valves because there is equal pressure on both the intake and exhaust on a turbo application), the cylinder filled to the point during the run where it hydro locked the cylinder with fuel, bending and ultimately breaking the rod. To back this theory up is the dyno graph itself, the engine never lost power, it continued to climb until the dyno operator lifted, had the rod broken at 1500HP you would have seen an instant 12% of power fall off the dyno chart (over 150HP) but it didnt, this is because the cylinder had stopped firing earlier in the run and was never noticed. To further confirm our theory we were told that 3 coils were replaced earlier due to dead cylinders.
This brings us back to the rod, Manley rates their rods for endurance type applications such as nascar, the ratings are roughly doubled however for drag racing where the engine does not see continued load for hours at a time - call Trip Manley (the owner) and he will explain this and loves to discuss racing and his products!
Once we get the parts here we will have a better idea of what was going on, either way we are going to help him out and look forward to getting him back on the dyno!
Our preliminary theory is that the engine dropped a cylinder (started to miss) due to a faulty coil about mid run - in he dyno run you hear the engine change tone when they start to load the dyno cell. This cylinder in our opinion started to miss at this point, as the boost rampped in quickly the loss of power was not noticed (1 cylinder only make up for 12.5% of the engines power. As the dyno run progressed the dead cylinder started to fill with fuel (it cannot escape through the valves because there is equal pressure on both the intake and exhaust on a turbo application), the cylinder filled to the point during the run where it hydro locked the cylinder with fuel, bending and ultimately breaking the rod. To back this theory up is the dyno graph itself, the engine never lost power, it continued to climb until the dyno operator lifted, had the rod broken at 1500HP you would have seen an instant 12% of power fall off the dyno chart (over 150HP) but it didnt, this is because the cylinder had stopped firing earlier in the run and was never noticed. To further confirm our theory we were told that 3 coils were replaced earlier due to dead cylinders.
This brings us back to the rod, Manley rates their rods for endurance type applications such as nascar, the ratings are roughly doubled however for drag racing where the engine does not see continued load for hours at a time - call Trip Manley (the owner) and he will explain this and loves to discuss racing and his products!
Once we get the parts here we will have a better idea of what was going on, either way we are going to help him out and look forward to getting him back on the dyno!
Oh I get the big power stuff breaks. I will say though if ya start off with parts rated at half the power you expect to make it is someone's fault in the end. In this case I still say it falls on the assembler saying here you go, they shouldn't have agreed to do it without proper parts.
Spend the money and get the Oliver Med duty rod for something at this level and had the assurance you had good parts that could handle the needs of the build.
Spend the money and get the Oliver Med duty rod for something at this level and had the assurance you had good parts that could handle the needs of the build.
Unfortunately we have tested the Oliver rods first hand, their best offering isnt anywhere near as strong as the Manley Pro Series rods, if it was we would be using them.
In regards to the rest of your post that is your opinion and we respect it, but unfortunately disagree.
CPRsm
Active Member
I'm sure you or your builder have never exceeded manufacturer ratings. No one ever uses H-beams in a 1000rwhp engine. Even though h-beams are only rate to 700-750hp. But we all knows an H-beam will live just fine at 1000rwhp and has been doing so for over 10 years in mod engines. You could just save yourself time and post "I'm going to blame MMR no matter what anyone says or who takes blame."
fastest mod engines use Manley. Iirc Mihovetz uses a Manley rod in his engines also.
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You are out to avenge some personal vendetta against MMR. Just step back and chill.
Rating a rod at 750 hp at 8500 RPM is not a one time power rating. That's not going to the be the one single point of ultimate failure where the material just snaps. That limit is more than likely set by fatique of the metal itself, under that much power at that RPM for xx hours.
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All his posts should say this.
What do the logs show from the standalone ecu on this, especially with the indiv cyl dropping?
Going back to one of the original questions. You state that the Rod Greg brought in is good up to 1500hp. However, you stated that MMR didn't supply it in the build. Fair enough. What Manley rod would have been installed if MMR was doing the full build here, especially if Greg's motor is to run low 7s and mirror the MMR record holder? Just trying to understand here.
Oliver rods are what we are using in our Coyote Modified motor.
None of us are "out to get" MMR or anyone for that matter. There's no vendetta here, purely trying to understand what happened. Also, some of the questions coming out are in response to the constant statements about the Fastest engines, best out there etc. It seems like there are never failures and if there is one, it's always someone else's fault. Sometimes people just need to man up and say, hey we made a mistake or the part really wasn't the best etc. That's all here.
Back to the topic at hand, curious to see what the analysis shows of the Rod failure along with logs etc.
Lastly, I thought I saw Justin from MMM post in here. I believe Ronnie's x275 Mod Motor uses an Oliver or Crower rod. That car has gone 198mph with a single power adder in x275 trim.
Not really sure what that has to do with anything, the MMR coyote with only 5.2 liters ran much faster and higher MPH than Ronnies 5.8 liter did/does and the MMR coyote uses Manley rods - not sure what your point is here? To summarize, the person you mentioned runs slower, makes less power, has a different engine and uses a different brand rod??????????? Our apologies, but we see no relevance.
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The dyno facility did not use ANY individual cylinder monitors. The BS3 system has the ability to make individual cylinder correction but no monitoring to verify the cylinder is (or is not) firing.
Whoa, not a big deal. I was simply pointing out that Ronnie's x275 car makes pretty big power and runs low 7s at almost 200mph with a Non Manley rod, so the Oliver/Crower is holding up. That car is making north of 1500hp based on the mph and weight in x275 trim on a 275 pro radial. Also, not sure what is considered "MUCH faster", when his car has gone 7.13 to 7.02 and 198 to 202. However a small F1X versus TWIN Big Turbos and lower weight might have something to do with it. :shrug:
Interesting to know on logging or lack thereof.
Interesting, nothing like arguing about a product when you dont even know which one he has - come one bud, you should know better! Quit poking the stick at everything we say and we can all get along here! :beer:
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